Disagreeing in Love

Daniel Russo sits down with fellow CGN Board Member Tim Reynolds to discuss the importance of being able to disagree in love. They tackle other related issues including: emotional intelligence, the importance of critical feedback, and navigating different personality styles.

Transcript

00:10
Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Church of God network podcast. In today's episode, I sat down with Tim Reynolds, who is a fellow CGN board member and attends with the Living Church of God. The episode was recorded back in December 2020, at a winter family weekend, and our topic was disagreeing in love. More specifically, we discussed the skills needed to disagree in love, and how to more effectively make cultivate and maintain relationships in the church of god across different organizations and when dealing with differences of opinion. Hope you enjoy.

00:39
So I'm we're referring to the book Crucial Conversations by Grenny and I think a few other authors, authors remember, but that's been a really transformative book for me. And that among a few other books that I've read in the past few years have really contributed to my emotional intelligence, the development of that aspect, as well as emotional courage, and being able to have difficult conversations with people, even with people that I'm variants with, but come away as friends in the midst of that.

01:16
And the practical sort of application of that for the church within the context of disagreeing in love, or being able to be around people you disagree with and maintain relationships is that I think there are some buzz phrases or cliches in the church where you hear it a lot like waiting on God, or disagreeing in love. But it's never really defined specifically. So people inject into the phrase, their own subjective interpretation, what that means, right, like, in terms of, they have their own arbitrary threshold of what it's okay to disagree about and what's not okay to disagree about, period. And

01:58
also, what it means, like, what the in love part actually refers to, I guess you're talking to me. Yeah. You talk about the emotional intelligence side being a prerequisite for disagreeing and love and I, I would agree,

02:13
yeah, that you view need the capacity to understand yourself, first and foremost, and get from the exchange, the proper and godly thing or maintain the relationship. Regardless of point of view, I guess grant granted, it's not something like the Sabbath or the Holy Days.

02:36
Yeah. And even that, like, you know, you think about, okay. In the church, you operate and cooperate with people that are outside the church, and they don't believe in the Sabbath. They don't believe in the Holy Day, they may or may not even believe in God, they may believe that abortion and killing babies is just fine, right? Like, all these things that we might find. reprehensible, but you still are able to function, get along, cooperate to meet common interests and goals, right?

03:10
I guess it's never okay not to do anything. That's not in love. Right? Like, it doesn't matter. You're you're trying to live peaceably.

03:19
Exactly. And so, we, I think that's, if we can operate in that context. Why is it sometimes so difficult to operate within the context of other brethren that are in perhaps other groups within the body of Christ, or even if, in our own group, or our own congregation, like you see, I'm sure anybody listening here is familiar or is a part of a conflict that's in their own local congregation where either they are not speaking to the other party, or the other party is not speaking to them, or they've been witness to this, or they've experienced it at an earlier period in their life. And so, you see the whole time. So I think, disagreeing in love is first off realizing that love is obviously commandments given to us right to love one another as we will love ourselves, right. And so part of that in terms of the emotional intelligence parts part that you mentioned, and I mentioned earlier comes from being able to examine yourself. Be honest about your own faults. Be honest about your own gaps and lack of understanding and take that sympathy that you might have for yourself and apply it to another person. That ostensibly, also has the Spirit of God, you know, if you're recognizing them as a brother and a Christ in the church,

05:07
it's also there's a phenomenon where we feel subconsciously compelled to demand agreement from people. And if they, like you said earlier if they don't agree it's a personal rejection. And then this dynamic kicks in where you're trying to convince the other person, right? Well,

05:29
you identify oftentimes with your beliefs or with what organization or group you're a part of. So it's not only that, for example, they are rejecting whatever opinion you have, they are rejecting you, at a personal existential level, I think a lot of people without taking some work to really examine that and realize that just continue to function in that way. So everything is a conflict when there is a variance of opinion.

06:07
Right. And I think it's, it's something I think people think they're losing something in the other person when they're not in agreement. For example, you take something like whether or not you believe in church, Eris, right, there is a difference of opinion on that I happen to believe in church areas, there are people who don't, yeah, and when you if, if we were to be talking with someone who doesn't, and that comes up there, I think people go, Well, I want to be able to agree with someone that's like, I want to connect on this thing. And I can't in there's I don't know, there's like something threatening about it, or there's something there's like a sense of loss that occurs instead of treating it as Why is that a fundamental thing? Like, why does it need I guess, if we're if we're taking this as a specific example, in the church, I personally don't understand why people feel a need to be an absolute agreement on everything. Like in my experiences. In college, my mentor was a member of the Green Party, like the super progressive wing of the left, and you know, a more libertarian conservative, and but we loved each other, because I respected in him his intellectual honesty, he had a different worldview. But I respected where he came from. And I think he saw in me that I was trying to do the best I can, I was being honest, in that my beliefs were genuinely held, I wasn't being partisan, I wasn't parroting like talking points, and we respected the genuineness of the other person. And that's been replicated. I, since I live in New York, there's plenty of opportunities for this kind of stuff. But a lot of my friends the same way, we don't see eye to eye on every single issue. But as long as we can see the other person, it genuinely believes it, and they did the work necessary to get there. That is more of a connecting force, then simple agreement like I there are people I agree with things on that I'm like, I don't know if you did your homework on this, or if this is just like you've absorbed it from the church culture. And so like I don't, I can't have an edit, I could have a better conversation with someone who I disagree with the new because I don't maybe there's not a lot of depth there. Or maybe there's like you're just a cultural trapping of being in the church that you believe in the Sabbath or that interpretation of trumpets or Pentecost. Right? Well,

08:29
it's an that applies to anything. And you're right, like some of the most personally fulfilling and rewarding relationships I have in my life, the exciting ones, the ones where you can talk for hours are with people that I disagree about a number of things. But you touched on something there earlier, there is respect. There is underneath there a certain trust and the other person. Without that trust, you can't relationships operate, to the degree that there is an underlying trust in the good intentions and motives of other people, right? You transitioning into lencioni you're transitioning into the advantage foundations of trust, all these things, they work in a feedback and network into each other. Like I'm kind of I'm riffing on that some concepts from book called crucial conversations, but also that lead feeds into works from Pat lencioni. Oh, especially the Five Dysfunctions of a team and wherever the ring, you got to read it, though. It's great within the context, this is a bit of an aside, but it's great within the context of a team reading it together like a work team. I get it, you know, be awesome for a church or small group to go through it or something like I've never thought of that.

09:54
That would be cool for like the board maybe to do because we have you know, we've only been around for a year and a half at the point in this recording, but yeah, it's sort of boards more from like startup boards and the early just sort of, Okay, how do we make this happen?

10:12
Yeah, then it's about development. And you want to do more without putting burdens on people, but maybe like taking one really impactful book like this and building it in. And that's the thing I forgot to mention yesterday, but I want to bring up was more. I think, as a board, we should do a little bit more intentional team and relationship building. Especially since there are people who don't know each other now. Exactly, yeah. And we're scattered across the country. So we can talk about that later. But Five Dysfunctions I've gone through with my team at work. And we're actually going to go through another round with the same team, because it's evolved. Some people have moved on, some people have come on. So we want to have this rhythm of going through it to build that trust. And Pat lencioni his model, I don't know if the quote is from him. But he says that business runs at the speed of trust, right, trust is crucial to everything, anything getting done, saying, okay, raining back to the theme of relationships and being able to disagree, while maintaining love. There's a point at which I think the breakdown comes where at some point without consciously recognizing it, there develops a lack of trust, and a lack of respect. Yeah. And sometimes that's earned. Sometimes it's a breach of trust, trust. Sometimes, it's a perceived breach of trust. Right, like you think something happened a certain way. But there the other person's perspective and opinion on events may be completely different, or very different in significant ways, from your own and your experience of the event, right. There may be, that may not even have happened, there are assumptions like for example, I grow up in one particular organization of the church. And I'm assuming based on hearsay, and gossip, and the divisions and lack of trust of other people, that oh, I cannot trust people in another organization.

12:35
Well, that's what I that's what I was thinking of is that, so that you're, you're bringing up a really fascinating point, because the beginning of CGN one of the things I thought about a lot was that me growing up in a very small, independent group, we stayed worldwide a long time in everyone, no matter what your situation was, had impressions of the other rooms, and realizing intellectually, well, that's not really honest. That's not that's not, that's hearsay, there's no information there. I do not know for myself what, whether these stereotypes are true. So it was one of those, like, just wipe the slate clean, right? Okay, what are what's the reality of things, and I've always had a, we've talked about this, oh, I had a soft spot for the Living Church of God. And because I got to know people there, they got to know people like yourself. And then we hear people in other groups, spout the cliches or the stereotypes about living like no, that's not like, there might be some people, but it doesn't match your personal experience. you're making it seem like it's this monolithic, is one, everyone is just this way. And the core issue of trust. I think what happened in the initial splits is that you had, obviously you had a leadership vacuum attended to one extent or the other. And the secondary leaders in the church, due to when leaders broke off or interpersonal differences. You had breaches of trust, like you were talking about, like occurrences that happened or maybe a personal history where they didn't trust her person. Now you have a thing where it's been 2530 years, and it's not that have been breaches of trust, that there's been no trust established.

14:22
There's been no effort to seek common ground or to build bridges or rebuild

14:30
that trust, right. But like if you're our generation, or maybe even a little bit older, it's not like there were instances you can point to like if I'm in ucg, and someone else's in living or having personal level we're speaking Yeah, it's not like you know, I didn't growing up in in real life for a long time than being independent. I didn't have an occurrence with someone in a different group that broke my trust. I just because of distance, never established trust. So if, if that's the reality of things now And you start to have people come in contact with one another or like maybe from afar see a group, you said relationships are said businesses move at speed of trust, yeah, that it doesn't matter that we didn't have trust breaking actions or events, we have never done the work to establish it. So we're like, we're stagnant. Because unless you and I get to know each other, we're not gonna be able to start that process to then go and build off of,

15:27
exactly. And that's also why the personal aspect of it comes into play as well like, because you can get on the internet. And you can read, you know, opinions from hate websites, or just an opinion from one blogger or an article from another. But it completely changes the game when you reach out and you actually, say, for example, go to livings winter family weekend, and start meeting people, and having some

16:01
significant conversations about some difficult emotional topics. And then building those connections and being honest, and coming out with open hands and a certain degree of vulnerability to invite other people into that, that space of vulnerability. So that really what's occurring is that you're building safety, so that people can start to connect, and can't can actually the crucial conversations book talks about the pool of meaning. And sounds like I'm trying to contribute to the pool of meet pool of meaning, and you're trying to come at it with, okay, I have this story in mind advance or what reality is based on my experience and perception. I'm putting that into the pool, but also you elaborate on the pool of meaning I the pool. I don't remember that. Or sorry. It's just the pool of meaning is really like the shared context of what you both are bringing to the table in terms of conversation and relationship effectively. That's like, you're all here, this discussion is me coming to you. And I'm placing my experience and perspective and opinions into the shared pool, you're placing yours there, too. They're gonna and you're filling it up, so to speak, I'm probably getting it wrong some way. But that's, that's what I remember off the top of my head, but it's really just about contributing to, to the shared meaning that's coming from the conversation that you're having. So I forgot my original point with that, but Oh, yeah. So you can, at a very impersonal level, read opinions online, or hear gossip and hearsay. Or you could reach out and build connections in person by for example, what you did a few years back attending the winner, family weekend with living, actually meeting people introducing yourself, putting yourself out there being vulnerable, that invites other people to feel safe and become vulnerable as well. And so you connect, and so you're establishing trust and relationship. And with that, you are starting to build the rapport and the basis upon which you can

18:39
even have the capacity to disagree and still remain friends and maybe change your mind. And because the thing is in when you don't have the trust established. And then you get into a conversation where there's disagreement cuz that's another thing we do a lot in the church, where people will go people say to me, oh, well, I went I went to visit another church. And they just they wouldn't have it. They like they kicked me out and they weren't hospitable. And you find out was because they went in to the comfort of the congregation and immediately started talking to people about their pet doctrinal difference between them and the church, right? Like,

19:15
well, that's not productive, or they're there. They're coming at it. That's a good example, actually, of an unhealthy way to agree or disagree in love. They're coming at it with an agenda. They're coming at it with the agenda of, you know what, you're wrong. You're assuming they're wrong in the first place. You're assuming you're right. And you're God's gift to the church. That's going to save everyone. And you are going to come in and convince them with your words and your opinions. That's the thing

19:47
that the goal becomes convincing becomes, like, compelling into compliance, or it becomes Well, just because I think the word of God I know what you mean. And there is an agenda. It's more, I think it's subtle. I don't think people take the time to think about the fact that that is actually what their agenda is.

20:06
Yeah. And I'm speaking to both the, the conscious and the unconscious, right? Because people do this at both levels, right.

20:14
And the and I think the thing becomes people don't say people don't take the long game. But if the emphasis is on getting to agreement, first and foremost, you're putting the cart before the horse, but if you, if you establish the relationship, you realize, okay, Tim's not a bad guy, Dan is not a bad guy. There I, at some level, trust who they are, and trust the fact that they are at least trying right and you trust God's Holy Spirit in that person. That Okay, we might, I don't even know where they stand. I don't know if we agree or disagree on things, but I know they're there at a core level trying to do the right thing. And then when when a disagreement comes up, you are much more prone to listen. Right? And, and be able to navigate that civilly. And I will say from experience much more open to hearing what the other person has to say. And mulling it over with a thought that, okay, Is this correct or incorrect, whereas if you haven't established the trust, and all you have the stereotype and you come in, and whether it's your fault, or the other person's fault, you get into disagreement, then you start that from, I know who this person is, this person is a ucg, or an LCG person. And they are

21:33
this way, you're looking at this label that you've already applied in your head, the filters the filters in place,

21:39
and but once that's gone, you stent, you then start to think about the argument or the statement on its own merits, right. And I've experienced it in the church, I've experienced that in terms of, you know, a pet interest in Economics and Political theory. So there are guys who, you know, I'd start getting reading their work or getting into them, like, okay, yeah, these guys sound reasonable, they have the credentials, you can entertain the thought, right? And then all of a sudden, they hit you with something that you've never thought of in, I've had moments like that were like, Okay, that was so compelling. I have to I have to look into that I have to revisit that issue. And sometimes you go, Okay, well, no, there's another side of it. I actually don't agree with that. And sometimes you go, No, that changed, that this changes how I think about decision grew from it, and you grow, and we're compelled to grow. And I think anyone who has either gone through personal trauma or trials that lead to growth, or someone who's been in the workplace, in a dynamic work environment, knows that growth only comes through not only through work, but like, through uncomfortability. And through a certain extent, healthy conflict. Yes, that that you need, you need to be able to sit down with someone and hash out disagreements in bring all the information to the table and let the truth without to like paraphrase. paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, I believe it was he said, You should put all the truth on the table, right? Or all the information on the table if the truth without. And I tend to quote that a lot, and I should probably get the quote exactly right. And it's just it's very useful. But um, it's a it's a truism, and especially in, I think, in the church and in the workplace that I think we're very hesitant to give honest feedback. Oh, absolutely. And it's been a chore to be like, Okay, I'm bringing something to the table. So we were talking about the website redesign. And I'm going like, I really want him to try to destroy this. Like I really want to be like, okay, I don't like this. I don't like that because the last thing I want is to put a product out there, right? And then after it's been out for six months, have some other people go wow, that bought that part of the bit that's, that's really poorly designed. Like this is an eyesore. I don't like going to this. Well, I like to have avoided that by hearing Tim's input or Chantelle’s input or Corbin or Isaac or Carmine’s input and because the underlying assumption is me Daniel Russo does not know everything. I can't know all the information the only way I can get more information. Yeah is to is to bring other people even though I am from New York. I don't know everything. Most things New Yorkers know most things, but we don't know everything. We need other New Yorkers to help us. But, but it's like it. It should. I think too. I'm rolling my eyes here from Tennessee. I think to some at some level, it's obvious right? That you don't know everything you need other people and their input to fill out the picture. Right? Um, but I think what we do, especially in the church is okay, we're going to Do a project or start a new church or whatever it is, and the people who are, quote, brought into the conversation to discuss how to do it all agree on how to do.

25:11
Or they agree that what you're even doing fundamentally is already the right thing. They're already bought in. And you're not seeking. Okay, what would somebody who completely fundamentally doesn't even agree with this say? And is there merit to what they're saying, right?

25:28
And it's one of those. So let's say that happens, right? You're doing this thing in the church or due to a project or a church organization, or you're analyzing how you do a certain thing. And everyone who's on the leadership team, who gets brought in to work on this thing comes together, and you're all you know, in agreement, or it seems like maybe you're all in agreement, have the conversation, no one's given pushback, like, yeah, this is a good thing to do. I think the problem is that, that that's not a red flag for a lot of people. Because I know for me, going through what I've been through in work, and in the church and things, that's like alarm bells go off, right? Like, someone's not being honest with me, yet someone is holding back or we are too insulated. We've all been thinking about this together too much. We need other people's opinions. And even if maybe, maybe we're even right about the way we want to do something until you found someone who gives you the opposing side, and what the opposing viewpoint might be on how to do the initiative. You're not doing your due diligence, like you need to find you need people to disagree with you, and to get all the potential viewpoints. Before you feel comfortable moving forward.

26:42
You know, where I saw, what we're describing actually happened was at work, actually, I work at Ramsey solutions. And we had, in recent months, we had a few decisions that have affected the entire team that were controversial. And our Chief Information Officer, you know, he was continually probing, like getting feedbacks and the outcome emails talking to people. And he sent one email that I remembered, and I kept, that was very striking, because in it, he said, Hey, you know, I'm not getting a lot of pushback. I'm not I forget the exact phrasing. But he's like, I'm not getting like disagreement. And that really bothers me. Because I know, there's, there's got to be something, I do not believe in an organization of this size that everybody is just okay, completely. So I'm asking you to exercise the emotional courage to please come to my office sent an email that says that you're not going to get in trouble. That's not healthy. Yeah, that's, and I see that kind of behavior coming from that organization over and over again, one of the reasons I love working there, but I've seen healthy models of that happening. I don't know. This is a bit vulnerable to say, but I don't know that I see healthy models of that happening across the Church of God. Very him that really bothers me.

28:18
There are some I think it's one of those. And another lesson to the whole navigating the Church of God is that it's about individuals, like there are no groups don't have. Yeah, groups aren't things groups are people. They're composed of people there and so the there are definitely ministers, there are leaders, there are people who have that emotional intelligence who do seek those things out. But I agree with you, I don't think the cultures of these organ of the organizations that operate within it, or we as a body across organization, individually, individually, yeah. Like the I think is you can you can you can make statements about on the whole, right, like whether or not there's a general problem. And I and I, yeah, I agree with you. I think that's not something we value necessarily explicitly as a church, but you want to touch on

29:09
on something and I want to interject a bit. I don't want to say that and it coming off like I'm indicting an organization or a group or whatever, no, no, it's what it is. It's the really is like, what this whole thing for me is a call to action to the individual person, do work on yourself. It all starts with you to be able to build emotional intelligence, self awareness, the ability to be vulnerable, the ability to build trust and relationships, to suspend your own beliefs, and opinions and assumptions for a second, just enough to listen to another person and perhaps give the benefit of the doubt to another person, because that's where the change starts. It starts with you. And ultimately, that comes down to how you relate to God as well. Right? And express love, at the individual level with everyone that you meet. And how you

30:14
read an internalized scripture, yes, because you should be doing the same thing I really, even in a vacuum is just you, you should be challenging your own assumptions all the time. And you should be doing that on a regular basis. And you should be looking at, you should be reevaluating your own beliefs. And are they backed up by scripture on a regular basis? And, and I think the thing about, you know, go back to your example about Ramsey and healthy conflict. I don't remember if it, I think it was lencioni talking about the advantage, or it might have been might have been on a podcast he was doing, where he talks about, you also need to reward people for giving you critical feedback, yeah, that you can't positive. Yeah, you can't say you want it and then give all the indications that you're not really pleased with it, right? Or you can't retaliate against them. He talks about an exercise he does in his organization where the leadership team sits around, I think it's a monthly thing. And they go around the room. And they stick each person states about the person who they're focusing on at that moment, what they bring to the table as uniquely Good. Then they go there, again, to each person and say what that person uniquely struggles with that is bad for the organization. And the person who gives the best critical feedback gets the specific reward, like not always a prize,

31:47
but like some sort of benefit. Yeah. So like, there's an incentive. And then even if it's just social recognition or approval, sure, but then,

31:56
but then he goes, and then we start with me, like Galvin, CEO, and we start with a leader that the main guy owns it, like, okay, destroy me first, right. And of course, you, you don't do it maliciously, you don't, you don't act like a jerk when you're doing it, it's more of, hey, you're really cynical, and that rubs off on me. And it makes the tone of the office negative when you get into one of those moods. And these are things that that help the church function on a day to day basis, if like you're in the headquarters of, uh, one of the bigger groups, it helps navigate the disagreeing and love dynamic on a personal like, one to one basis.

32:36
But these are also like fundamental to our conversion. Like, yeah, marital relationship should operate this web. If you can't learn to disagree in love, and you're married. Right? Like, how are you

32:48
gonna last long kids and family dynamics, like I remember the one of the most impactful things for me growing up was when I remember, right, the house I grew up in, and we had brethren over. And I was watching my parents and them talk about, you know, whatever interesting thing was going on in the church and what they were navigating, which I always loved to do as a kid. And the my dad turned to me and went, What do you think? And I seriously was probably like, six or something or seven? And like, What do you mean? Like, he goes school? Like we care about what you think? Like, what do you what do you think about this? And I gave my mind is blown and Yeah, seriously, like to this day? Yeah, I joke with him. I go, and since then, I haven't Shut up. Like, I never stopped telling you what and but that fateful day he Yes, made the biggest mistake. Yeah. But that's, that's such an important thing to be cultivating in families, this idea that everyone's opinion matters. And that if you have a problem with like, with me, or something bothers you, or something is hurting you bring it to our attention, right? And even if we disagree, like even if, hey, you maybe you're sick, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. The person needs to feel okay, bring that up. Because again, we're going into another interesting side subject, but it's integrally related to this. And that is in I believe it's healing the shame, which is a book I referenced to you last night, by john Bradshaw. He talks about a phenomenon in families where, oh, no, this is I think this is family secrets, which is a distinctly different book, where there's a phenomenon called family secrets where there are these things that everyone in the family knows what's going on. Everyone knows dad has a drinking problem, or there's infidelity going on marriage, or there's, you know, some dad struggles with anger a mom struggles with depression elephant in the room, the elephant in the room is there are these elephants in the room? And kids try or maybe even one of the spouses or the people in the family on occasion tried to like bring it up. But then they're crushed instantly. Yeah, we don't talk about that. Or they're gaslighted nothing's wrong. I don't know what you're talking up.

35:00
Yeah. And then you're made to feel like you're crazy. And

35:02
yeah, or someone gets really emotional because there's something dramatic going on in the family. Why are you crying about it, there's nothing to be sad about. And you just you invalidate the reality of the situation because Pete, the people in this in the family unit are trying to prop up the essence of who they are like, they

35:24
don't want to have to confront these challenging parts. They say it's challenging to face that pain, and work through it and deal with it, whatever it is, you know, it could it could I say pain, which sounds dramatic, but it could just be something simple, like something is just dysfunctional. And so anyway, right? If you don't address it, it compounds it compounds. Yeah, if it's not addressed, then it just gets worse and worse and worse. And then to you mentioned, the outer reality, sometimes it's not even the reality, it could just be solely the perception of the individual. But still, if you react in that way, where you're just denouncing them or completely dismissing their feelings, that's not healthy. That's not love. That's not exercising care and concern for what they're feeling and what is reality in their minds. Yeah, right. And that's just not loving.

36:21
What one of the things I've learned about myself, in my relationships with my family. And so you know, so my romantic relationships from beat, but me and my brother, go through this a lot where we'll get into conversations, or maybe arguments or something. And I recognize a couple years ago, that I have a tendency to steamroll as I call it, yeah, that, you know, I like to talk but even when I'm really in good faith, trying to be opening confront an issue in the family or with an individual person. I will talk for like, five minutes, like, I'll tell all, and I'll be maybe I'll be articulate, and it'll be clear, and I won't be lying and everything. But it'll be so much information coming out the other person like they haven't they've forgotten the first thing I said, like, I'm overwhelming them without realizing

37:09
overwhelming them with information and data and facts or whatever, or it's not an

37:16
I might not necessarily be like arguing a point, I might be saying to them, like, hey, I've noticed something in our dynamic and it's bothering me. But if you talk for five minutes straight, that's overwhelming. No, not in dialog, as the book would put it, right. Yeah. Or I'm not I'm not setting the other person out to also contribute. And, and, and feel, I guess, heard, and but it's not intention. Like there are things I did that I like, yeah, it's a problem of mine, I need to address this. I'm not doing it the right way. But that when I made that realization, like, Oh, that's completely unintentional. But it does make you know, Steve, or the girl I'm dating, it makes them feel right, like smashed, or intimidated. And that that's a perception thing, that some safety. Right. And that's, that's something that is not malicious on my it's not like Ma'am, in the example we use, it's not like, it's an infidelity thing or anger, or I'm, I'm not willing to confront a part of myself, it's like, an accidental habit that you get into, it's just normal. But it can be internalized, yes, like trauma, or, or a big issue for someone in a family dynamic or romantic dynamic, or like in a church dynamic. All these things scale up to the workplace and the church. And so

38:37
I will, I want to interject Just a second. So, and it's good that you recognize that on your part, and now you're aware of it. So you can recognize when that's triggered, like, oh, I've been talking nonstop for the past two and a half minutes, this person is shutting down, surely noticing them their body language and state, and they're being quiet. And you can just, if you're aware, and you're paying attention, you could recognize those moments. On the flip side for them. They can also recognize and if they build trust with you, they can give a little grace and say, Okay, well, I know, I trust the intention of Dan's heart. And now it's upon me to express this and build up a little bit of boldness and courage to speak back and in turn, say, okay, Dan, you're doing that thing again, that you do. And can I just speak for a minute. And if you both come to the table with that maturity, then disguise the world is your oyster, the sky's the limit, like what you can do with that dynamic between two people and engage in that healthy conflict?

39:51
And that's incredible. And there's another there's another level to that because I can go in and go Okay, well, I recognize that about Myself, yeah, um, but you know, they need to say to me when they have a problem, I, but it is true, but you have to incentivize it, like I have to when Steve or the girl I'm dating or my parent, if I was a parent or a friend, yeah, who I'm talking with, when they do muster up the courage to say something, I can't get angry, you know, I can't, I can't invalidate, I can maybe I might be able to disagree with that, like, you know what, I'm not Hey, you know, you're, you're you just said that. I'm bullying you like, I'm not doing like, I'm not trying to do that. But I can see, like, that's, I think that's an accident, I'm sorry, I can see how that is that's happening. You don't need to agree with the person necessarily. But you cannot make them seem like they're crazy. Right? Like you, you have to. You have to let them express what they're what they're feeling. Even if you might disagree.

41:00
There's a keep coming back to Crucial Conversations because like, to me, a lot of what this book provides is tactics and conversation skills that allow you too, in the pragmatic, practical sense, exercise, love in disagreements, right? So part of that you hit on a few things, for one thing you recognize, you're in the midst of a crucial conversation, you're recognizing, first of all, you're probably at a variance of opinions, right? emotions are high, there's tension, you're recognizing in that moment, okay, I have a tendency to get angry, or I might react in anger. So I need to stop and pause, breathe and cool myself down for a second. So that can come at this from a loving angle. And then to, you want them to engage as well. So if they're saying, Dan, you're being a bully, you could say, and this is straight out of the book, like, I don't want you to think that I'm angry, or that I'm being a bully. I'm actually trying to achieve this with you. And I want to, I want your feedback to, but honestly, here's what I think this that in the third and then invite them back into the dialogue as well.

42:26
And you just have differences. Another thing too, is sometimes you just have differences of upbringing, or culture or personality that are that are not laden with moral connotations. They're just, they just are they just are. And but, but they become serious points of conflict when you come up against someone who does not communicate that way, or does not express things the same way like, yeah, our good mutual friend, Dan, I like him and I are like the same person when it comes to this stuff. And so we can sit here. Yeah. And I'm hoping to get him on the podcast. But we can sit here and we have like, and just I argues a negative word. But we've had conversations where we've disagreed the whole time for like two hours. Yeah. And we're both invigorated after it. Like That was awesome. I,

43:15
other Dan is, I consider him one of like, my best friends. And that's one of the most rich, rewarding relationships because we can hang out on a Saturday night, have drinks and talk till like 3am. And sometimes we're agreed Other times, we're in complete disagreement. Other times, we're just hashing out an issue until we come to some resolution or shared understanding or whatever, you know, and that's, that's

43:46
enriching, it's bigger. And I think you're also similar in that way, and that the three of us and there are other people in my life that are that way. And you know, I recognize I'm a product of like, my father, my father's the same way. Yeah, like the same personality. And so I get energy. Yeah, I get enjoyment out of disagreement. And like, fiery, sometimes not yelling, but like, not negative ash. antagonistic. Passion hash. Yeah. But I have recognized and I know a lot of people really great people who see that in, they see anger and conflict. And that's not where it's coming from. It's just a personality difference. But I recognize that if I'm not careful, like I come across really intensely I have that took me a long time in my life to come to realize and the other person goes, like they wish they were like put on their heels. Yeah. Because they don't know how to it's not the way that they act. Yeah. But and that's the thing going back to how we deal with each other in the church is that it's not their responsibility to learn how to deal with me, right. Not in my head, like they should write every but everyone has that responsibility to go. How do I make this relationship work, right? It's not you don't go into if you're a member of LCG or UCG you don't go into a COGWA congregation and go it's their responsibility To do

45:06
it, it's ridiculous. And I think so many people like they, they're, whether they realize it or not, they, they assume that oh, well, I subconscious, I'm not being received warmly or whatever or this or that happen like, well, what? How did you come at it? Did you risk yourself. And I'm thinking of the example of, let's say, you go to a new church congregation, and nobody's talking to you, or you just kind of feel like you're cold vibe in the room, like, okay, there are a few ways to react to this. You could go in there, and you could just do nothing and wait for somebody to reach out to you, and then come away and have a bad experience. Or you could go in, and you say, Okay, well, no one else seems to be comfortable putting out the effort. Maybe I'll just go look around for another person that's alone. Or maybe I'll look for a couple of people, and just interject myself, reach out my hand, or now in COVID, lands, you know, just do a fist bump or whatever, whatever you do. And introduce myself and break the ice. Now, that's, that can be scary, and risky, really intimidating. Yeah, it could be really intimidating. But you have to remind yourself that God spirit doesn't want to fear. It's one of love. And that's an exercise in love by risking that, and putting yourself out there and making the effort. And that may, you know what, there's no guarantees that may be met with that interaction. Yep, you may have to get through two or three rounds of those before you get a good reaction.

47:09
But you wrote in, I was, I was glad you went here, because I was gonna go in the same thing that you engage in this process of putting yourself out, for example, you know, visiting new places, or meeting new Brethren, you, you go and you try to establish these relationships. And if a couple of them are awkward, okay, or you go there, and maybe like, for me, it's not necessarily as difficult I have no problem going to the new congregation and like, interrupting the conversation saying, Hey, I'm Dan Russo. How are you? I saw examples of that yesterday. Yeah. So like, we're like, I also recognize I think a lot of people like that. I think a lot of people like me to take the burden off of them. Yeah, yeah. And but so but I recognize not everyone has a skill set and personality like I'm an extrovert, I think what am I yeah, yeah. Yes. TJ whatever. The executive,

47:58
yeah. Myers Briggs. Well, it's funny, you mentioned that and mentioned what you talked about earlier, because you know, you're an extrovert, you're more of an aggressive personality, like almost a stereotypical Northeastern or other Dan is to, I am not naturally actually, believe it or not I grew up with, especially like, I got into my teenage years, I was very self conscious. I was always nervous about what people thought it scared me to death to go up to a different group of people or a group of people I didn't know, I would think in my head, oh, I'm bothering them. Or they don't want me around. They all know me. Stuff like that, you know? So it took years of work to come to the point where I am now. Oh, yeah, in conflict, like just to see like, a quote unquote, argument between, like you and Dan, like that would have been, like, I would have just seized up here and like, my body would have tightened and I wouldn't speak and I be completely uncomfortable in that situation. Or in other situations. I, my natural default is avoidance where I have a conflict, and I just avoid the person or avoid the topic. And I try not to wait make waves that way, which makes things worse, right? Or there's the unhealthy reaction of just hiding yourself where you have a friend, they may not even really know, the real you or what you really think because you're just going along to get along, they say things or they spout opinions or whatever that you truly actually don't agree with. But you're just going along to not cut to not have conflict at all that to say I'm coming at this from the opposite end of the spectrum leaning into that, to develop those skills and to develop that emotional intelligence to develop that emotional courage. And I've done so much work. And I'm not saying this here to, to prop myself up or promote myself, I'm saying it to say that it takes work, but it also it takes work, it takes work, and there's hope. And you can do it.

50:21
And the thing that I've been thinking about through all this is that you so let's say you're someone who it doesn't come naturally to you don't.

50:32
Because like I said, it will be uncomfortable when you're building the skill, it will be uncomfortable to do it. But you know what, we don't do it. Because it's comfortable. We do it. We do it because we're commanded to, like, you look at you look in Scripture, scripture is not silent on the need for us to be unified. Yeah, not believe the same thing. Yeah, but unified in spirit, we're unified in loving one another, and, and helping on submitting are helping each other your brother better than serve each other. And we're, there's no way to get around it. And so once you see that, that's the reality. Like, what now? Okay, well, we all have to become uncomfortable for the sake of building the skills necessary to start moving the needle on that issue. And the

51:17
also to counter the among the people that will not be in God's kingdom are cowards. Right. And that applies emotionally just as anything else, probably more so.

51:27
It but it is also so it's so rewarding, though, when you put in the time and effort and work. And then you see a result or people respond positively.

51:35
Yeah. And, and your whole demeanor and vibe changes to I mean, going back to that example, maybe you were coming into that congregation or group of people, whatever, cutting out a vibe that was not inviting, and you just don't know. And they were all saying, you're thinking,

51:53
wow, the congregation was really cold, and everyone else in the congregation is going, Oh, man, that guy who came in it was really standoffish,

51:59
right. like someone's really, someone's got to break that someone's got to break the cycle, someone's got to do the pattern, interrupt. And that can be you. And if you do that, if you are that person, this is a little off topic, but I think it, it's within the realm of what we're talking about. If you do that, your demeanor changes the spirit, the vibe, the Mojo, whatever you want to talk, whatever you want to call it, that changes, your posture changes your body, language changes, everything changes. And then from then on, you start realizing, oh, it seems like my normal experience is people are inviting,

52:42
they are friendlier. Because what you're engaging when you're engaging in is, as far as I can see is faith. You're having faith in God. And you're having faith in godly principles, and what God expects of us and more importantly, we're having faith in God's Holy Spirit, in the people around you. And when we as a body operate from this perspective of, I'm not going to talk to people in that group, there's no getting through to them. Or you, maybe you're a leader or minister and go, why can't tell people, my congregation to go to that group because they they're going to get deceived, or they're people, they're going to be a bad influence. You're not having faith in God's Holy Spirit in yourself in the people that maybe you're preventing from visiting. Or if you're judging people in another group, you're not having faith in God's Holy Spirit in that group of people that yes, you know what, let's say you're right about your belief on a given doctrine. If you believe they're part of the body of Christ, then they have the capacity to see what you say, they have the capacity to grow, and, and change their understanding. Now, if you look at a different group and go, they're not part of the body of Christ, that's a much larger issue. Much more fundamental, but I think the vast majority of the people within the church of God, community Yeah, don't think people in other groups don't have God's Holy Spirit. They just think they're off base on certain things. And we've had these like unintended, some intentional or some unintentional walls created. And when you exist, like you said, within those walls, it's not only is it fear based, but it's actually showing the lack of faith.

54:21
Yeah, I agree. 100%. I kind of want to share this example to again, I want to, I want to bring it back to some, you know, it's fun to talk theory, but also to like, how do you actually do these things? So very recently, this happened a couple of occasions. A friend calls me up and they say, hey, Tim, what's going on? We chitchat for a while. And they're like, Oh, well, I'm now attending this other organization because of X, Y and Z. Right? And they're sharing with me, they're telling me about it, and I can share my reaction. It's usually some variation of Okay, well tell me more, why you probably heard of the five why's like, I really want to engage with them, and ask why. Okay, why? Why? Because first, I'm just trying to, I really understand want to understand where they're coming from. I think that's just basic friendship. Right? You know? And I may agree, I may not agree, whatever. In this example, I disagree, obviously, and maybe not obviously. But, um, and then I, you know, we kind of go through that. And I'm like, Well, okay, but, I mean, I just want to be honest, like, I really don't agree with your position, or why you're doing this. And here's why. And I articulate those reasons. ABC XYZ, there may be something where we debate on like, Well, I'm not really completely sure about that. But I can suspend that for right now. And then, usually, if I really care about the person, which all my relationships, I care about the people, I say, Well, listen, thank you for trusting me. And giving the time to actually reach out and call or text me and tell me this, because that says a lot about the value of that relationship. It's not a casual relationship, where somebody just, you know, calls you up and goes out of their way to tell you something risky like that, especially when they know there's a significant chance you might disagree. Yeah. Or they don't know how you're gonna react, they may think, well, Tim might get angry. We're like, you know, blither blather for five minutes about how they're going to hell, so to speak, right? Yeah. So it'd be in the place of safety, right? You're not gonna whatever, but I expressed to them, I love you, thank you, I appreciate the gifts of the trust that you're showing, because as a gift for another person to trust you, and to open up and to be vulnerable with their heart and mind spirit. And, and, you know, I want you know, even though we disagree, call me any time, we can talk about this, again, if you're having other problems, or you just want to talk, or just go hang out and get drinks or whatever, let me know. And we're still friends, because in the end,

57:38
your responsibility in this life is to work out your own salvation. Yeah, trembling. And that's it, it's yours. So what your friend does, has no bearing that's between God on you and your conversion. Now, I will say secondarily, are we so our primary responsibility is to God, our relationship with Christ, our conversion, but within that context, we have responsibilities to the rest of the church. Yeah. And so but your only responsibility to your friend, is to do what you can to further their calling. And right, the thing to do is not to demand compliance with your flaw, potentially flawed understanding of circumstances, it's to help them engage in like, critical thought, critical thinking, do you believe this? Have you done all the work you can to know that you believe this right, I'm here to listen, I'm here to help you on if you know, getting critical feedback is important. All right. You know, if I disagree, that process is the best thing for that person. Getting them to agree with you is not the best thing for that person is not the goal. No, because number one, if they haven't done the homework to believe it, right? It's not real anyway. Yeah. Or if they're just if or if they're just humoring you, if you can, if you can go into a congregation, or go into a relationship with a person having no pre existing trust or time spent, make your points about your belief and have them immediately agree. That's, that's fake. Yeah, it's not really that person that that person's opinion was old.

59:13
guy comes in, right does the same thing, right? You did what? And I like, Oh, it's like, it's kind of like how Paul described Athens. Like, they're always looking for the next thing, or they're eager to hear this or that it's, it's baseless, you know,

59:28
we should be helping each other build capacity. Yeah. As, as converted Christians that we should be helping each other think for, for ourselves, and encouraging our friends to think for themselves, and come to their own conclusions, because we're all gonna be part of the Godhead, like, where, and ultimately, they have to be our conclusions. Right? And it's, and we shouldn't we shouldn't just be waiting for the kingdom to happen. Like this is a boot camp, you're training for The work in the world tomorrow. Yeah, it's not about like, I really I bristle when I hear about getting into the kingdom, it's a very, very self focused approach to the conversion experience God's plan of salvation. It's your part of the, of the advanced team, like you're the part of the first wave on to Normandy here like, all right, this you're going to be kings and priests in the world tomorrow, you have to learn how to lead, you have to learn how to think for yourself, you have to learn how to be emotionally intelligent, and understand what's wrong with you, because you're going to be helping people who are also very flawed, navigate their lives, and you have to have learned through your life. What made you tick, why, why did I react so poorly? or Why did I build this? Why is there this part of me that's broken and always comes out in romantic relationships? Or my friendships? Oh, because this happened in my family growing up, or

1:00:56
whenever there was an issue, or I'm just simply wired this way. And that's my thing test to overcome it. Yeah, sure. Like, maybe,

1:01:03
maybe there's not enough information to ascertain how it got there. But you know, it's there now and and how do you work against it? Because the other thing too, is, maybe the thing you're working against, right? Me being the steamrolling example is one of my smaller issues that I have. It's not one of my big ones. But you know, there are going to be issues we carry with us till we die, we do not die perfect. No. And so sometimes it's just the process of working on that throughout your whole life. That builds the skills and but when we don't recognize those things, it makes those relationships in a disagreeing in love impossible. You have to go in humble you have to go or as much as possible is the key word there is steaming people higher than yourself. Because if you go, and that's the task of the church God right now, right? If I always am sort of amazed that if you Tim or maybe go into a congregation, we should be confident with what we believe in general, like we should have done our homework. We know we don't know everything. But right, we shouldn't we should be doing the work to study and. And so if we go and sit someplace, and we maybe hear something we don't believe in, it shouldn't destroy our world. Right? And I'm always sort of confused and a little amazed when I see people who do fear that Yeah, because it makes me wonder, well, how well established are your beliefs?

1:02:28
Well, we've even had moments like that. I can remember a couple of occasions where we're in that exact context. And we hear something and we both look at each other and kind of roll our eyes like, it's kind of weird. And then we talk about later hash that, like, everyone has that capacity, I'm really, I'm really, I'm very confident that pretty much everybody has that capacity to critically think and figure things out. I mean, that's why the majority of us within the church of God are in the Church of God. Because we looked at things that didn't make sense in society at large with our upbringings, with whatever religious background, we have whatever. We said, you know, that doesn't make sense. And then we searched, or we heard it accidentally, whatever, whatever the manifestation of God's calling was, that took place, we chose to think differently, and exercise that critical thought to learn and grow and develop, that doesn't stop once you find a church and start attending, right, and that's the news three, your whole life.

1:03:35
That's a good point. But it's weird and sort of ironic that a body of people who have all, by and large all come to this similar place because of independence of thought. And then we have this secondary culture that once you're in, there's a sort of pressure to, I don't say, check your mind at the door. But like, there's this sort of pressure where you now want to either fit in or have a loyalty job to one church organization. Or maybe you then fear getting, quote, exposed to a different view and another church organization, whereas, like, I know, my parents, they grew up Catholic and they came in, yeah, what's the what's the threat? Like? Yeah, it came out of Catholicism and Christmas and Easter like you, you risked your whole family disowning you to come into this viewpoint, you can go to another

1:04:25
organization you can wear Yeah, you can go to a family weekend and right, like, if you disagree, disagree, and it's one of those things where you know, you can also be comfortable with disagreeing. Right. And I think too few people have developed the capability to simply agree to disagree and move on. Yeah, and still exercise love and concern and trust

1:04:46
and also there's a component of being able to admit when you're wrong about something because, you know, I mentioned before you should come into a, we should have confidence, sort of like in our beliefs and have done our homework. Yeah, but there's also a If you've lived any length of time, you have a history of Yeah, I've, you know, I'm confident I've studied, I feel like I've done my due diligence. But I also know I'm probably wrong about some things. And when those hit Like, it's gonna be tough to eat Crow and turn around like, you and I have talked about the turning points where we went from believing, you know, these other groups are somehow lesser, or our group did the best thing, whatever you want to however you want to phrase every word. And then you come to that moment of realizing crud, I was so off base for so long, right, man, that's embarrassing. And at that point, you're at, you're at a decision point, you can either double down. Yeah, and refuse to move. And just push that, that, that lingering doubt, to the side, or you can go Okay, not me on this. I was wrong. What do I do now? How do I how do I help the situation? And I think once you've done that a few times, you then just learn, you sort of are also confident that you don't know things and that when you find those out, okay, I'll be willing to tackle that. Like, again, I'm not worried about finding out that I was wrong about something,

1:06:10
right. I just sort of know what comes with the territory. But it comes with First of all, that's just humility, right, which I think is I mean, any, anyone here will agree, is a fundamental attribute that you have to develop or else you're not going to be in God's family, right? Second of all, to your right, in that as, as life continues, you're guaranteed to figure out that whatever it is, within the realm of religion, or faith or business or whatever, you're going to find things that you were 100% certain on, right? And then you come to a realization Oh, well, I was wrong. So I mean, just realize that and accept that because that's the way of life that's being an imperfect human, who is not omniscient. What, what?

1:07:05
None of my dad's favorite phrases for a long time, and I think it's brilliant is, um, what truth are you afraid of? Because, you know, I grew up in worldwide way past a lot of the splits of the early to mid 90s, and was with a cadre of people who didn't believe the changes, but for one reason or another, decided to stay within the organization then was worldwide and became Grace Communion International. And he talks about when the changes were first hitting and worldwide, confronting those rather than just saying, Oh, that's ridiculous. It's not true. I'm gonna, you know, just dismiss it. He goes, Well, you know what, I have to actually look into what they're saying. Right? Like, okay, clean unclean meats is not necessarily the last done away with Okay, you know, what, what do I lose by going? Let's go through this exercise. Yeah. What information are they sending out? Okay, let me read it. Can I Can Do I know why that's wrong. Right. And he said, the big thing was, what if they're right? Yeah. Why? Why should I be afraid of learning truth? Yeah, no, of course, the end result was that they are the vast majority of things we're not we're not correct. I think maybe they saw certain dysfunctions in worldwide and they probably characterize certain things accurately. But doctrinally, certainly, they're not correct. But the but the idea? Why would you be afraid that they might be like, you just shouldn't This shouldn't all of life, be about the pursuit of truth? And about and conversion, the pursuit of truth, the truth about who you are the truth about what, what God is trying to accomplish? who God is, in trying to get closer to? To him?

1:08:53
Yeah. Now there is, you know, there's the balance to that, you know, you're admonished to avoid deception, and so on, so forth. But to do that doesn't mean that you simply close your mind off and stop studying. The way you do that is to study ideology, to say new to study, to continue to be grounded. And that takes time revisiting and learning and developing greater understandings of the nuances of the truth and God's Word to

1:09:31
that's, that's also brilliant this because it's the we're admonished to guard against deception. Yes. We're not admonished to avoid every thing that disagrees with us. Right? And so the way you guard against deception is built is working the muscles to discern using God's Holy Spirit to discern and being able to better navigate things into to analyze information to analyze arguments to If we are studying enough, and know why we believe what we believe we're well versed in the Scripture, that's how you guard against deception. I think people think you guard against deception by avoiding. Yeah, that's not that's not what you do.

1:10:15
Well, it's, you know, like the, the example of the, the bereans, who are fair minded, right? It's like they took the information, and then they go back, they do their homework, and then realize what's truth and what's not. And I'm sure, this is extrapolating beyond that, but you know, they're probably hit with a ton of different ideas, right. And in a culture of pantheism. They get the truth told to them, they go back, they study, and then they figure out what the truth is by reading and understanding God's word. That doesn't mean that they haven't explored other options or other ideas or other perspectives. They've simply exercise that muscle of discernment. And via God's Spirit, presumptively, been able to put that together with that exercise to come to a deeper knowledge of the truth. I feel like that's the way I think might be a little bit different for

1:11:17
for our generation who grew up in it might be a little bit a little different, but certainly for our parents generation. People, whether 10s of 1000s coming into the church of god sphere. Yeah, who did just that they, they were searching, they looked into a bunch of different religious views, different forms of Christianity, different like Eastern philosophy. And they determined through study that no, the Church of God had the compelling narrative, it had the truth that was rooted in Scripture, like they proved the validity of the Bible. And through that exercise got here. We should be continuing with that exercise once here. And it's one thing to like, avoid engaging in actual evil, right? Like, of course, you don't want to put yourself in actual dangerous circumstances. But the line between meeting more people in the church of god in different organizations and engaging in like actual evil things there is there is such a wide gap between those.

1:12:19
Absolutely. I just want to encourage people to really do take some time to do some self examination, perhaps even some journaling. Think about what conflicts you've had, what differences of opinion you've had in your personal life. Think about the reactions that you have had to them. And consider Was this the best way to handle it? Did I do it from a place of love? Could I have preserved the relationship and preserve unity despite that variance or this difference of opinion?

1:12:57
Good advice. Thanks. Thanks, buddy.