Daniel Russo sits down with Tim Stahle and Richard Fowler to discuss a new organization they founded - the International Centre for World Peace (ICFWP).
They also discuss a central part of the ICFWP's efforts - a virtual reality model of the millennial temple in Ezekiel's vision!
Daniel Russo sits down with Tim Stahle and Richard Fowler to discuss a new organization they founded - the International Centre for World Peace (ICFWP).
They also discuss a central part of the ICFWP's efforts - a virtual reality model of the millennial temple in Ezekiel's vision!
00:10
Well welcome everybody to the church of God network podcast. today. I'm here with Richard Fowler in Tim Stahle. Welcome, guys.
00:17
Thank you. Hi, Dan.
00:20
So I guess we should start off with how we all know each other correct? Probably a good place to go.
00:25
Sure.
00:26
Yeah, I think so. And I think we should start with you too, because I actually don't know if I know how you guys met. Sure.
00:34
Yeah. Sometimes we don't know how we met.
00:37
Yes. So we've we actually met. First time in Sep, we both grew up in the Worldwide Church of God. But I mean, we only met once. And we really started hitting it off when we were leaders at an Estonian summer school program. It was a youth program that the church put on. And, yeah, that's where we really hit it off, I think.
01:05
Yeah, definitely. I had decided to take a break from being a staff member Sep, the church summer camp, and decided to try out this summer school that I heard about, and that's when I rekindled a friendship with Tim. As I said, Tim said, We hadn't really connected before then. So how long ago was that? I remember the 2011. But it may not have been the 2011.
01:31
Probably 2012. I think, okay, I may be wrong. Yeah.
01:36
And I know that I met Tim. I want to say 2018 when he came to New York, right? Was that, right? Yeah. Okay. And I still never met Richard
01:51
actually. So I only know Dan and somebody on my computer screen, which is a bit weird. But one day, it will be I'm sure in the flesh. Because I think if I remember correctly, Tim came to New York in for the spring holidays in 2018. And I think you came around. I want to say June that same year. Right.
02:12
Right. So yeah, it may well have been Yes, it was 2018. And it was July, and I was in that area. And I haven't come to I think your local church area. But Stephen was there but not yourself,
02:28
is the only the only thing that would have prevented me from being there was what was happening. And I was on I was on a church of God network trip trying to meet with people before the launch. So we still have yet to meet in person maybe
02:40
clarify that because I thought that you didn't like me. And you don't?
02:45
I mean, both it was accident. Yeah. But I yeah, so to clarify, for everyone watching and or listening. We all grew up in Worldwide Church of God, after the splits in the early to mid 90s. It's now Grace Communion International. For a lot of people, in my experience, they don't realize that there are still people in that organization that keep God's holy days, and that keep all the doctrines and beliefs as the church held back in its heyday, and as the other church of god organizations believe currently, I think everyone assumes that the organization GCI is uniformly with the changes that happened in the mid 90s. But that's not the case. So there are still people, like the two of you who are still actively attending with that organization, but do not necessarily adhere to all the doctrinal teachings that come from the organization itself. With the introductory statements out of the way here and how we know each other a personal history out of the way. Tell us about the International Center for world peace, because you two are the founders and two board members of this organization. Can you tell us a bit about its mission and its vision?
04:05
Well done. The International Center for world peace is an online community that brings people together to learn about God's plan for world peace, and at the heart of our nonprofit, our two core ideas. One is community and the other is learning about God's plan for world peace. So our mission is bringing communities together to learn about God's plan for world peace. Do you have anything to add to that? Sure.
04:35
So when we're nondenomination, and of course, we're not a church. And you know, one of the primary ways that we bring people together is through a virtual reality space. And of course, maybe we'll talk about the details of the activities, but in that space, we like to host presenters, presentations that are talking about aspects of God's plan for world peace, and it will be an opportunity for people to come together And community to meet each other, of course in virtual reality. So geographical boundaries are not a limitation here. And they hear something about the gospel of God's kingdom and what he's going to do to this to this up. So that's essentially what we are our primary activity.
05:18
Sure. So my understanding is, obviously, you focus very heavily on that narrative component on God's plan for world peace, really, in essence, is the heart of the gospel what why God's kingdom and government is coming and why it's needed and what will result because of it. And as you alluded to, one of your primary ways you do this is through a virtual reality space. Can you talk a bit about how that came to be sort of how did you get the idea for this virtual reality space? And maybe give some details about what specifically that virtual reality space looks like?
05:54
Sure, absolutely. So more specifically, the International Center for world peace has created a proportionately scaled model of the vision of Ezekiel. So basically, the God's house and the future headquarters of, of the world and the future. So we want to invite people into this space, so that people can begin to get a taste of what the new world is going to be like, and how to build community together and fellowship and have fun There sure is.
06:39
Because the my understanding about this too, is that on this platform, you'll actually be able to enter into and walk around. As he feels temple, or division, he add and interact with other people. And I know we'll get into discussions about what you all plan on doing within that space. But Tim, perhaps you can talk about why you started building this platform, what inspired you two to take the details of his Eagles vision and make it into a reality or at least a virtual reality?
07:15
Yeah, so it's, it's kind of an interesting story. We, I was just about to move to California about three years ago. And Richard and I, we got together at a good friend of ours and the regional Minister for the Scandinavian congregations. We were meeting up in Oslo, and we're brainstorming a little bit, we were already involved in a youth project for the teenagers in these kind of neighboring countries. It was a homepage, and we were coming up with ideas about how we can help serve the church or serve the youth. And we're sharing ideas. And we basically, Richard asked me what I did for a living. He's asked me many times before, but for some reason he doesn't quite get it right.
08:07
I need a second crack at the whip.
08:10
Understand yet, Richard? Just about?
08:13
Yeah. is asking is thinking about four years. But yeah, no, no, I'm kidding. So I explained what I do I work with building technology. And one of the one of the skills I have is, is creating 3d models of buildings. And Richard asked the question, is there some way you can you can use this for the church or, or, or to encourage the youth and I came up with the idea, you know, hey, what why don't we create a recreation of Solomon's temple? On the Richard came up with the idea? Why don't you just create Ezekiel temple
08:52
this idea of Well, some of those samples, the first and second sample have been created this lovely models, but maybe not so much the Ezekiel temple. And the idea was, it was a project that would look forward rather than back. God's work is always working in the forward. So it was it was a project that could maybe inspire the brother and capture the imagination.
09:13
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, from that point on, it was it was it was amazing, because we realized we couldn't do it on our own. But we started to look through our own network, like if we had people who could help us out and within 24 hours, we found two other teammates, current Sanders, and on a year ago, a guy from Norway. So we had a we had a crew and we added a little team and we, we hit it off. And from then on, our lives have changed pretty much
09:48
Yeah. Because that was the that conversation started then the initial project, we which we refer to as a sample project, which was a nickname and that project plus to the feast of 2017, the Feast of Tabernacles, where we presented this model with an inspiring vision. And at that point, I think we had static, standalone images of a virtual reality aspect part of the temple. But you can only be stationary, you can look around, we show people that. And when we did, Tim and I both because we presented in Denmark, and in the UK v sites, we saw the reactions of the people we heard, we saw the reactions, people really appreciated it. And it was that moment that Tim and I had to sit down together and be like, Okay, do we do we shelve it? Do we? Is that it? Is that what the term project was? Or do we do something else with it, though? Do we take it to the next level? Do we give it to the masses? And maybe Tim can explain a little bit about the compensation because we sat down and we were faced with this decision?
11:07
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we, we had the conversation, and basically, we saw the good fruit it produced, I mean, it made people inspired if they were really excited about it. And we could see that this is something we need to share with others. And we, we basically, I guess, I, I saw the potential of how we can develop this further so that people can actually meet in a space and how we can create community across geographical boundaries and have real time interactions. And then at the same time, learn and experience what God's kingdom on earth will be like.
11:55
Yeah, and the amazing thing about that story is you touch on several key and important things here. And what one is, obviously, which is near and dear to our hearts is building community and, and really the power of networks and networks across countries. And the importance of how you can leverage that to serve God's people. And you know, I'm sure it was great to have a team with you doing this rather than it just be the two of you, or just be one of you. And there's also this this. It within that story, the idea of entrepreneurship, even if it's in a nonprofit context, you have taken an idea and running with it. And really, I think what's interesting is that you two were both very deliberate about this and methodical, right. So it was the spring holidays, you said of 2017 when you started to have these conversations, and then by the feast, is when you showed it to people? Or am I getting that timeline
12:53
17 January, that weekend that Tim is talking about? Yeah, in Oslo, and come the full Feast that Feast of Tabernacles of that same year. And there's something to
13:05
be said about that deliberate, methodical process and making sure you're doing it the right way and doing it to the best of your ability. I mean, I know sometimes it looks like these initiatives just sort of spring up out of nowhere, but they don't write it was it was multiple years in the making for you to it was getting feedback from people refining the idea thinking about what do you want to do? How do you want to do it? Where do you want to invest the time and money and was the same thing for church you got network, right? The idea happened actually at the feast to 2017. About a year of talking to people before we incorporated another year before we launched like these things happen? methodically, and rightfully so I think when efforts or projects move too quickly, you wind up not getting enough feedback, not enough suggestion and counsels is taken. And I think projects suffer as a result of that. Now, sort of in that vein, maybe the next logical question is how did you come up with the name?
14:08
Well, actually, we came up with a name about not, not long after we it was basically the same not long, long after we gave our second presentation in the UK, and it was when we had the conversation about we want to share this with the world. So we got down to the basics of what is what is his eco sample is in more practical terms. And I mean, in practical terms, it's going to be the center of the world. So, we, we had a long conversation, and this is something that is intended for the whole world in the future. So the International Center made sense and then what is the purpose of Zico sample and the purpose is that It's going to be the center of world peace. So yeah, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.
15:05
Yeah, basically, what Tim has expressed, it was I remember the conversations, though you refer to intentionality prior to this, and we had nicknamed it the temple project. But it was, as Tim said, we had to then say, Well, what was this building? What was the house of God? What was this temple described in his ego? You know, in its most, if you like, this lowest common denominator, in its worst form, because we could have called it out of God. I mean, but we played around, I think, with a number of named names, some of which had very interesting acronyms. But, but it was it was looking at this building and saying, What is its function? What would it do? And obviously, Ezekiel describes a time of restoration for the whole earth, the prince of peace will return world peace will ensue. Yeah. And because of that, well, we know it's gonna be a building, like Tim said, which is international that all people are going to come, you know, this is of course, harking back to it will be more come to this house. And the idea of it being a sensor, we felt the language was a little bit more easy for other people who maybe weren't as religious or weren't believers could understand. And because it was the throne in the seat of Jesus, himself, the king, the Prince of Peace, then from there, he would administer peace on earth.
16:34
And on the point you raised about the different acronyms that we used, a word that was really important for us was house and then we wanted to use it, but it just wouldn't. to our American audience, it just wouldn't sound right. If we were the International House of peace. I mean, the acronym would just
16:54
that that issue around with that, man. That's great.
16:56
I'm so glad I'm so good. I really like that name. I really like that. Well, I'm not as cultured when it comes to the American culture, class culinary dining right there.
17:09
I mean, I've heard apparently, so I'm so glad that you laughed at that, because now I feel like Tim's protestations about this name, now, I've totally verified like, Oh, yeah,
17:20
absolutely. If you're, if you're, if you're, if the acronym was Ihop that, I mean, I don't know sometimes I wonder cuz you know, you're talking about all this. And, and I love what you guys have done in terms of the branding of it in terms of the logo, which I'll ask you about in a second. I think the names great International Center for world peace. It communicates what you all are about. Also, it's very positive. It's evoke, say, Oh, well, that's an interesting, like, I wonder what they are all about. But also, I think, and this could just be me, but the International Center, there's like an academic quality to it, as well. And I know part of what you all are going to be doing is, is some writing on the subject, and there will be discussions, podcasts, I'm assuming media different in different forums, about God's plan for world peace, which is, you know, as members of the Church of God is his coming kingdom and government and everything that goes along with it, why mankind can't govern itself. And I love the academic sound of that name, because I think, my personal opinion, I think we need more of that kind of thing in the Church of God. But Richard, I know you and I have talked about the need for more projects and efforts and initiatives within the church of God that aren't churches, for specific purposes. And I think you guys are a great example that along those lines, why don't you talk a bit about the logo, how you came up with it? what it what it pictures?
18:53
Yeah, yeah, I'd like to talk about the logo, it's a very dynamic thing. And before I do, I'm just gonna leave background to a point that you just made about that the name. It's interesting to hear that when you hear it, it, it communicates something about academia. And that's, that's super interesting, because of course, it is a center for learning. But this is what the house of God in the future will be, it will be a center for learning. I'll dip into why that is in a little bit. But also to I had a discussion about the name and we wanted it to have currency in multiple groups and community. So now I'm not just talking about religious so when you think about the International Center for peace, and we didn't necessarily know that we were gonna have that name given or approved because it's quite a grand name. Sounds like we're from the UN or something. We're not. But we wanted that named currency across multiple communities, even though they may not be religious.
19:47
Yeah, and I mean, I'm from I'm from the political Think Tank community, by trade, and so there are so many organizations within that. That segment of the economy will be here that are in I worked for the Empire center, and there was the mercatus Center. And it sort of evokes all those like, academic but not necessarily University, not academia, but sort of people who are well studied in a particular field or area, and they're bringing this knowledge, your expertise to people, and they're very focused on certain subjects. And I also like the fact that it I think it makes you all malleable to because you have the, the virtual reality space, but it opens up the possibility for the beginning of a larger discussion, just outside of the virtual reality platform.
20:42
Yeah, absolutely, certainly. So on to the to the logo, just for the viewers who might be looking at the logo right now. Or if you're just listening to it, the logo is of a man with a hammer over his head ready to unleash the full strength of a hammer swipe, and he's holding a sword, which is being bent into a plow share. So of course, as I explained that everybody's mind is going so as I, you know, that the people will beat their swords into plowshares, and their space into printing hooks, and they shall learn war no more. This is, of course, a very, very powerful image of what is going to happen when Jesus returns the Messiah. And then we'll start and begin. And finally man will be subdued on the God’s government. And only that, then we have peace, which is what you alluded to earlier. But before we get into why we pick that seminar, we sat down, we thought about the name, we thought about our mission, which was articulated earlier in this podcast. And we said, well, what image can evoke, that can communicate the idea that we are about community, and we're about learning, but also we're about the kingdom of God, which is an expression of world peace. So with all of those ideas, we spoke to a designer who helped us out an ex church member, but still a good, very good friend. And she came back with some design some of the more contemporary, which just focused on, you know, community, maybe a glow with little fingers or holding hands, you know, very kind of 1960s, you know, the brotherhood of man. And those were nice. And I think that they would have communicated something to contemporary audience. But one thing that had part of our cultural currency, actually, maybe more from our parents generation was this, this figure of a man being a sword into plowshares. I was familiar with it, because I grew up in the church. And Tim was as well, when a church of god runs an article about world peace and what's going to happen, sometimes they will, they will show this image. So it still has a lot of I think, cognitive resonance, and connection with people. It is highly symbolic. And of course, it is scriptural. So we looked at the different ideas that we had. But we were drawn back to this one that the man who who's got a hammer rip, raise the Bobby's head, so he's in action, okay. And he's building a sword into a plowshare. And there's a number of things going on in this this logo figure. Number one, clearly, there is a instrument of death, the sword that is being turned into an instrument of life, the power share, that sustains life through food.
23:31
There was that that kind of image evokes so quickly, what the International Center for peace we'll be talking about, which is God's plan for our peace. You have this this hammer above his head. So it's a very dynamic logo, it's not static, like he's in action. Okay. And that and I think that communicates something nice. Tim earlier on today, we were done in the kitchen. We're here at the offices of the International Center for peace, but he said, there's something about peace, that it actually takes effort and work. It's not something that comes just by default. It is something that is worked at so embodies a lot a lot of ideas and this is this thought harks back to what I said earlier on when we started to answer the idea that learning is at the heart of the International sense of world peace. The scripture this image comes from is it and it proceeding where we where we get there we shall be there swords into plowshares is a beautiful program. If you like a poetic perfection, from Isaiah, where he says that people will come up to the mountain of the Lord. So the house of the God of Jacob so they're coming to the house of God. And he God will teach them of his ways and we shall walk in his paths. This idea that at the heart of this new house is the Jesus the Messiah. teaching us more of our it's not what we think is right and wrong, which was a decision we made back in Eden. But teaching what God says is right or wrong teaching his law, his principles, his word. And what happens to the law show goes off from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. So the image and the idea of the house of God is intertwined with education and learning. But it doesn't stop there. What is the substance of effects of that teaching? Of course, you get this scripture in between where he says that he will judge between many nations of rebuke people are far off. And then because of the teaching, they shall beat their swords into plowshares. There's a change of heart and mind, because there is a new education. And I think, because of that passage, because of the ideas encapsulated in it, and all the things I said before, we felt that actually, this was the right, the right image to go for. And that's,
25:57
and that's great. I love all that, especially the, the idea that because of the teaching, they chose to beat their swords into plowshares, like the idea that it's about teaching and about convincing and about people willingly and deliberately choosing to be different and choosing to follow God because that is also at the heart of the gospel, you know, we have freewill, it's about choosing to follow God, rather than choosing to be our own, you know, small g gods of our own lives.
26:27
I'm just going to jump in with another thought, because Tim and I have talked about the statue that is actually this statute at the UN, made by the Russians, actually, into the US. And so actually, it's outside the EU and not that we connected the UN, but it is interesting, even in that gesture that they decided to pick this image. Yeah. Right. Why was that? Because it communicates something.
26:53
And I like I like the idea of the Church of God, reclaiming that image from communists.
26:59
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What I was actually what I was going to say is, um, I love the sort of implicit emphasis on taking action, and not being passive. I think that's a, we've talked about this before, Richard, but this is the Church of God. And in many ways, we become a bit passive in how we approach things. And not only that, you two have taken the initiative to start up this center. With that God's plan for world peace is dynamic, and it's active and involves people making choices, day in and day out, involves us making choices now and doing work. I think the emphasis on God's plan for the world and God's plan right now for his church, emphasizing the engagement and meaningful work is a huge thing. And I think that's sort of an implicit part of what you all are doing. And really, for the Church of God, we're ambassadors for that, for that kingdom, where you know, so this center is a is obviously alluding to the temple being the center, and you all are a center of, of learning as well. But it's a representation, you know, we're ambassadors representation of, of God's coming kingdom, you all are talking about what is to come, which I think is great. And it's an example to the Church of God, that we all need to be doing work in training, because the work, the real work starts, when that center is established, it doesn't stop, it's not our work doesn't stop when we are made spirit. That's when that's what the training is used for. So I think that's a great subtext of what you are doing.
28:43
And if I can follow up on that thought a little bit, I think it's, it's, it's great, what you mentioned about how, how important work is, and I think that's, that's where the relationship between community and peace comes in as well. Because, you know, if you're, you're a part of a community, you help each other out, you work there's always some way to serve. And
29:08
yeah, exactly. And actually, working community is sometimes hard because you don't always get on with other people's working with other people is hard.
29:19
And also, I don't know if this comment will make it into podcasts, but just interesting, loosely relevant. I, um, I was reading something about addiction. And they did an experiment with I believe it was mice where they This was you know, I guess long before this was ruled in ethical or unethical but um, they became addicted to a certain substance or they there were two there are two things of water in their cage. One had an addictive substance and the other didn't. And when the mouse was alone in a cage, it would get addicted to that substance and eventually die from But if it had other mice living with it, if it had a sense of community and other living animals of the same type, it wouldn't look in the same situation. But there is and psychology has found a huge link between engaging in, you know, what we would refer to is sinful or harmful behaviors, and a lack of community a lack of belonging, lack of purpose. Again, another interesting subtext all this,
30:28
yeah, fascinating point down. And I think that that's so, so central to do the idea of, of the world that we're in now, which is just broken is fractured, we're seeing broken relationships, we're seeing broken people inside, and I'm really that's, that's at the heart of what peace is. I mean, if you look at a Hebrew word, Shalom, it's all about wholeness. And it's not just about it can be the absence of war, but it can also be just having right relationships with people and having whole relationships with people. And yeah, so these, I think this is this is basically, our, our main interpretation of, of how world peace begins, it begins with internal healing, and that can only come from God and his teachings. And, and then, of course, we need to need to respond to that.
31:28
I love that you're emphasizing that because that is, I think, actually one of our shortcomings as a community in the Church of God is that that narrative component has largely been lost that that's, that's at the heart of why we as individuals, and why this world needs God is that we're a broken people. And the only way to heal is, is through God's rule. And in everything that comes along with all the discussions that come along with that about, you know, us having freewill and choosing what is right. Mankind not being able to work out our issues because of we took it upon ourselves to determine what is right and wrong in the garden. And God has led mankind habits, however many years he's given us as a history and an evidence that, hey, you tried to do it your way and it didn't work out. That that point is, is so key. And I feel like in the Church of God, sometimes we emphasize doctrines that we think are impactful, the Sabbath and the holy days, because hey, they're very, they're very obvious in Scripture, the rest of Christianity does not follow that. But those are those are outgrowth of the larger narrative component of what God is working out, they should not necessarily be the first point of emphasis, and it is very encouraging to see you all starting with that narrative component and with the plan of God from the 30,000 foot view, because it makes everything else makes sense. So with that, I know you alluded to the VR space earlier, we touched on it a bit. Can you discuss it a little bit more? How is it going to work? How can people join in I know, you referenced having to access it through a virtual reality platform. And I know this is an emerging technology. Still, people might be familiar a bit with how to do that. But can you explain maybe a little bit of the mechanics of how to join and then once people do join, what there will be available to them?
33:28
Yeah, absolutely. So basically, it's a virtual reality space, and you access it through something called social VR. So it's basically like social media, but for VR. So basically, you'll sign up to something called alt space. And from there, we'll obviously have more information on our website and things like that, and on our YouTube channel, but you sign up to all space, and then you can join our events, which will be once a month, and then you basically you will enter that event, you can either do it through a PC or, or if you buy a headset, you put on the headset, and when the event starts, you join in. And basically what you'll what will happen is you will enter in to a new world, and you will basically be walking up the virtual holy mountain with other rather than other people from all over the world. You'll be walking up together, just as it's envisioned in the future. And you will honor the courts of the Lord and you will stand before his holy house and you'll get to hear some, some really cool presentations. We're gonna have a range of different speakers in there.
34:53
And with that, of course, being with other people, they may well know they will be able to communicate until we With the other avatars and just think about that if you have brethren and friends that are living in a different country, you can literally meet one day of the month, which we're going to start with, and talk and converse with, with brethren who live around the world. So it shrinks everything. And you can meet people in real time and have conversations and catch up with you will, maybe people you've gone to Ambassador College with ex students. And you know, you can meeting that space and have a bit of social interaction, as well as here as terms of the great presentations about
35:34
God's plan for peace. And that's interesting, because I actually, I forgot who said it, I did not come up with this on my own. But that the most impactful technologies are the ones that shrink the distance between people, either physical distances, like, you know, means of travel, like airplanes, or trains or cars, or in effect, like the internet, where your access to information or other humans, it becomes right in front of you, you have instant access to people their expertise, you know, YouTube, gives you that, you know, I talked a lot with friends about if this was 1970, and you wanted to become a guitarist, you need to find a teacher, you do read books, it was a slow process. And if you wanted to see an expert in the field, talk about their craft, you'd have to go see them in person. Now. It's just all on YouTube. So the idea that the virtual reality space will shrink the distance between people in God's church and put them in close proximity, in a way that's about as close as you're gonna get without actually being in the same room with someone is tremendous. Along those lines, I'm assuming there's like a chat functionality where you'll be able to converse with people, is there going to be an actual audio capacity as well, I guess, provided you have some sort of microphone to actually engage with the platform, but I'm assuming that's also part of it.
36:56
Absolutely. So the headset is built in with a microphone. So you can you can talk just as you would through zoom or Skype. And if you're using a PC, you do have to have an audio headset to be able to, to speak in there. So yeah, it it's amazing how it feels when you're in there, it feels like you're in a different world feels like you're in a different body. But you can of course, customize it to make it look more like you. And yeah, so this, this is a large part of the event of the events, it's going to be the fellowship, the fact that people can meet. And so after events, you're going to have the opportunity to hang out in the courts of the Lord as long as you want. Interesting. Here's a
37:45
fun fact, what I'm wearing now is exactly what my avatar wears when I read Yeah, so you won't miss me, whoever's watching, you'll be able to help me. And Tim looks pretty similar. Here's on brand. Exactly, exactly. It reminds me of the just this last feast in 2020, we had a private tour with some brethren around the course of, of the Lord around this virtual House of God in this transformed world. And there's two things that struck me. And I think Tim as well is Tim was in Sweden, I was in the UK. There were other people who had entered the event from I think it was other countries like Holland, the Netherlands. And here we were all meeting in one place, being able to talk to each other. Now we knew everybody, we were friends with everybody. But the fact that we will all in real time having this conversation meeting in this place as a prelude to what is going to happen. When Jesus returns it was something quite special and Reebok home to me what this platform this space can really be interestingly, in addition to that, you know, when you have an in addition to that, and you have that thought about five seconds ago, and it drops out. That's exactly what happened. Yeah, in addition has gone. Who knows it might well come back in seconds. If it does, I'll be sure to share that with you. One
39:16
more follow up that I had was um, the other thing I don't know if we've spoken about this before, or if this hasn't been determined, Richard, but will the will the platform will the actual temple, be online all the time for visitors? or will there be specified periods where people can interact with the space? And I'm sure that's subject to change over time, but at least initially, what's the plan?
39:41
Yeah, so the plan is actually that it will only be open for events and part of the reason for that is because it represents something very, very sacred and we want to make sure that it's only accessible and used in in a
40:02
respectful way, right, so one other, I know the main form, or at least one form of activity you've referenced is the speakers and presentations lecture series, I'm assuming things like that. Can you explain more about the space? Will people organizations be able to rent a space for an event? What are your plans for the space into the future? Yeah,
40:27
that's an interesting point. So we want we would love to collaborate with other organizations, we would have to look at what that could look like in the future, in the near term, it's going to be solely for public events. So we will we want these events to be free and open to everyone. In the future, we may look into how this space can be used for educational purposes beyond our public events. So if educational institutions would like to use this to teach about what is equals vision is all about, then then we would naturally be open to that.
41:15
Sure. Awesome. What other activities as an organization, do you plan on engaging? And I know, we've discussed previously, and we talked about earlier, potential podcast series of your own blog posts and articles, things like that? What are the different types of activities outside maybe the VR platform that you plan on engaging in?
41:37
Yeah, sure. So like you mentioned, one of the things that we think will people will be interested in is, is having a podcast and a podcast series, where we get to interview speak to just like you're doing with us some of the best minds out there as to what God's plan of well, peace entails. For us now, and in the future. It's a chance for us to step out of the VR space and into something that looks more you know, us in reality, maybe some people won't be able to engage with the VR space for reasons of technology, or age, or might not just be their thing. But they still want to hear about God's plan for world peace. So we hope to Well, we've already started filming some podcasts, we got a chance to go to Dublin and interview, an international Bible teacher, and another young lady who's written a theses brilliant theses. I won't go into any more detail, I don't want to give it all away. I like it. Exactly, exactly. But we are really speaking with them and asking them questions about, as I said, an aspect of God's path, world peace, are all things that we think are going to help people live out a life which reflects that peace a little bit more, and paint a picture of what it looks like in the future. So this is something that we were working on hard. And we're thinking about the kind of people we're going to interview and speak with. And hopefully that will enrich the educational resources that we are providing, it will be a chance for people to be able to just listen and explore with us, I think that that's important to know, the thing that we're looking at is launching. But further down the line, we're exploring the idea of possibly putting a magazine together, once again, I think VR space podcasts and something written gives a nice variety for people who are engaged, like to engage in in different resources, a chance to engage in one of them. Maybe people, you know, adapt or don't feel comfortable, particularly in the Worldwide Church of God communities to kind of tune in to YouTube, or if you know, or VR space, then they can get something which is more of a hardcopy, something that doesn't go away you can put down to come back after a while. Maybe a Bible study. Once again, these will be articles that exploring many of the themes and the topics that we feel come under this this big umbrella of God's plan for peace. But look at the narrative of Scripture, from Eden, to Eden in Eden in Genesis, to Eden in revelation, and all the things in between. and exploring this story of God and how he how he's writing this story has been doing since the history of mankind, but writing a story in our lives, how his work working in our lives, and what he's doing in our lives and how this is going to echo into eternity into the future. So that those are the kinds of things we're looking on a big scale, I think on a smaller scale. We will have our Facebook platform and Tim has mentioned that so YouTube and an Instagram, we would we'll be looking at posting some content, maybe some vlogs videos, and blogs on our Facebook page, just to give people some weekly thoughts about some of the concepts that we've been addressing, and some information and inspiration about, about the virtual house of God about what it meant for Ezekiel. What it means for us and what it means in the future. Sure.
45:12
So I know you alluded to having, doing interviews with different people around the world in different organizations. I know it's, while there is a heavy aspect of this, that is for the church of god community, it's not necessarily exclusive to that it's for everyone. It's for the whole world is to expose, hopefully new people to God's plan for world peace. Who are you working with on the project? Specifically, besides the to you, obviously, you alluded to two other individuals who helps you create and build the VR space. I know you all have a board of directors, would you mind telling us who else is involved in this in this project?
45:56
Sure, yeah, basically. So it the idea of community actually is associated with how we're able to operate the International Center for world peace. So various different people have supported in different times. So we have, we have different volunteers. We've had different designers throughout the project. So we Karina has helped out in the start and oliguric is has helped out a tremendous deal. He's a 3d design artist. And we've also had various different other designers and technical people have helped out it's Adam funston. And Ben Johnston really helped out with the model work and then then we've had people contributing with this beautiful logo. That's James Robson's sister Anna Robson. And we just have, we've had Friday the cameraman, so we just, it's awesome. Like, we have so many people who have just been get giving us learning their skills and talents to help make this possible.
47:04
for volunteers. This is the beautiful thing about the project itself. And how the project's activities actually embody the actual mission of it is about bringing communities together, that they are people with a natural network, I mean, you're one of them, you know, we have been able to share some great ideas with video from organizational perspective. But on the micro, it's these individuals who have been piled on natural networks, and we've grown up together, and we've all got jobs, we all had hobbies, we've all got things we like to put time and energy into and develop the skills and talents. And to be able to then pull that together just by saying, hey, look, I know you're good at this, can you can you help us. And to see that being done on a on a relational level, rather than a formal level, where it's voluntary, people just want to help out has been really encouraging. We sometimes speak with each other and think, you know, we would just never have been in this position, if it wasn't for growing up in the Worldwide Church of God, having other people in the church of gods and knowing them and their willingness to help. So it's been a blessing. And of course, what that has meant is opened up avenues to connect with people who might be heading up organizations, biblical teachers, people who have studied, and then to sit down and say, okay, we've grown up, we've learnt a lot. Let's put that, that learning. It's our microphone, and let's share that. And so that's been really encouraging. And I do not, I don't want say we've only scraped the surface. But I think we've got lots more to delve into lots more to export lots more volunteering and, and connecting with people. And because of those connections, I think the networks have grown wider, which has been really exciting connecting with different organizations.
48:49
And I think you're probably tapping into something that I that I've seen is that, I think especially amongst our generation, I think there's a real yearning to be involved in something meaningful, especially in the church. And I think for a lot of people, they don't always have an outlet. So there's this sort of bubbling, either frustration or discontentment in sort of those more negative phrases. But there's a there's a yearning to be to put their time and energy and efforts into something relating to their faith that they think can have movement and can have an impact and can benefit people. And it could be something positive and that they could that is of high quality to something that's different. I think, regardless of what community is in it might also just be a generational thing, whether it's in the church or in the world. There's this amongst our generation, a search for meaning in the work we do each day. And I could see it in my friends in the world. I could see my friends in the church, that that is not just enough to go to work every day, punch a clock and come back is that even if it's outside of our job, we want to be involved in something where we're moving the needle forward on something we care about, and I think you're probably having seeing a lot of that, and I'm hoping and sort of expecting that that's going to continue and hopefully grow over the years across the Church of God.
50:07
Exactly. And doing that in a time of need. I mean, many other talking to, my father has grown up with maybe I know them, doing this in a time of need, being able to see what the need is. And what I'm referring to. People who are watching this and listening to this will understand that the word church God that we're a part of, and the Church of God, are all experiencing at in some form or another a decline or a lack of momentum, or lack of energy, in some form, or fashion. You know, churches in general, are, have strong over the years, in the 21st century, when it when met with various challenges. church attendance is the client, I'm not saying that's always been the case with the Church of God. But with this fragmentation, we see a need for not just community, but for people to step up and say, Actually, I always look to my parents generation, I always look to the ministers, and they're still there, and we seek inspiration and learning from them. And we look to them and thought, right, that these are libraries, and they are, but what happened over a 10 year period is we grew up into the adults, and then we grew up into a particular generation in the church and it's like, well, they're how do we help out and respond? How do we serve? How can we use the things that we've got? We've been given, just by our learning or by God himself? How do we put our gifts into action? How do we use the talents that we've been given, and the Spirit of God that he has placed within us, so that we don't become fruitless. And this is one of the manifestations of that, and probably one of the, the more satisfying things of that, that is people coming together helping out and responding to a need and, and that need is maybe that we're all fragmented, and we're very distant, maybe there's not so much of an energy focus on vision. And so, this creates the, the context, when I say this, I'm talking about ICF, there will be Church of Our network for things to grow and develop and, and for energy and momentum to be read back in and for people to, to come together and do the work. And I love that phrase of praise, which was very much part of our organizational culture many, many years ago, but it's doing that work, and also trying to discern what
52:38
that work is. And there's, there's a, there's an excitement to about risk taking, like there's a there's an excitement about trying something new, not knowing what's going to happen, or what it's going to look like, or how it's going to change. And, and doing it anyway. Because you love doing it. And there's really no, there's, there's really almost no downside. I mean, you build relationships with people, you meet new people, you build skills, you find ways to help other people. It's a, it's a beautiful thing and a great process to be to be engaged in. And if anyone listening is thinking about doing something, do it like if you have an idea, you know, seek counsel, talk to people who have the relevant expertise and skill sets, and do your due diligence. But then find a way to do it, find a way to use your talents to serve people and to give back give back to the Church of God.
53:33
Exactly. And if anybody has heard that, and says, You know what, I've had this idea of he said on this idea, but I just not too sure if I should go for it. I'm not too sure if God has called me for this, or whether I'm able or whether I'm capable, or whether I'm competent enough. Well, those things are good questions to ask and the council should help you. But let the fruits be the feedback. Let the Do it, do it. Let the fruits be the feedback. If there are not good fruits, then you've had your answer. You've got your answer. We can burn I think of ourselves, we can bellow for ourselves. Even Jesus could not bear fruit for themselves, himself. So the fruits will be the feedback. And I think Tim and I have taken that principle to heart because we stepped into the unknown. And did we were we so confident so sure that this is what we should be doing. Well, no, but we had to see what the response was. And then when we saw the response, we were left with the question. Will we regret this? Yeah, yeah. And this time if we didn't, and the answer is Yeah, we would Yeah. But the but unhappy for it for not to work out and the fruits would determine that but if the fruit say otherwise, then we have to pursue because this is something that there is a tension between God being explicitly in control and solving the problems Absolutely. Attention with you taking responsibility and managing your own spirituality, your own faith and bringing that into action. And that's tension is not always easily discernible where the line lies. And sometimes it's trial and error. God created the world and the animals, and then he gave it to Adam to name those animals. There's a tension within that, you know, it's both God and man. It's not just all God, and it's just not all that. So it's exciting thought to think that Goddess has asked us to participate with him. And we try our best.
55:27
Yeah. So along those lines, why does the Church of God as a community in the world at large, need an organization like the International Center for world peace?
55:39
Wow, great question.
55:40
Well, we think we're, we, we want
55:45
this space to be open to everyone. So basically, the Church of God is scattered across the nations. Some people may have very small congregations, and some people may not even really have a congregation, they may only be able to meet once a month, like I, I grew up in Scandinavia, and there's no one my own age in my entire country. So we're scattered. And this is the opportunity to build community across geographical boundaries of real time meaningful experiences. Of course, we can do that on zoom. But, but now we can do it in the vision of the future. And we want people to be able to learn and share knowledge and basically, we really what the vision of the International Center for world peace is providing a space to facilitate a global community of people dedicated to God's word for world peace. And what that means is we want to provide this space to empower the church to give the church a voice in a modern age. Right?
57:06
What do you what do you hope people who might not be in the church of god right now, people sort of who might be getting exposed to these ideas for the first time? What do you hope to accomplish when they interact with the organization? Yeah,
57:23
so great question, I would say that one of the main things we would like to see with the International Center for royalties, is just see the shared vision we have, because there's one thing we all share in common. And that's, that's a beautiful future that we share. And to be able to experience this together and to, to build communities. We are a non denominational organization. So and we're not a church. So it's a place for the church, regardless of denomination to come together and meet. Basically, to sum it up, it would be to, to focus on the things we have in common, not the things that divide us.
58:14
Exactly. And on that point to kind of extend that to a broader group of people like maybe people who are not religious or maybe on the edges of spirituality that can't train with those ideas. The exciting thing about the virtual reallity space, it is a new medium, it's a new way of engaging, it is non committal, and in a generation, which is often skeptical of organized religion, tends to do their searches from their offices, or their bedrooms tend to search the internet, this is a step to them to say, look, you don't have to commit to something you want to hear something inspiring in not necessarily religious language, but in storyboards to tell you a little bit about why the world might be the way it is, and what kind of purpose God has for you. It's a medium in which they can engage with its technological, it's new, it's fresh, and I guess VR will continue to reach the masses as time goes on. And especially as headsets become cheap. And now you can, of course, engage with them on 2d. So I think it provides the space for people to try something out. Even if they're not sure that they're asking questions, then not too sure about what they believe to come together. And they have that distance because they have an avatar in this VR space, they're able to communicate with one another. But do so and to step out anytime they want. And so in that respect that it is a is a means to engage with, maybe those who are not necessarily believers and fully committed, but there'll be a chance to hear the gospel and decide, you know, whether this is something they feel that makes sense and whether they want to continue to engage and pursue
59:56
is interesting too, that the statement whether this is something that makes sense I think is an important one. Because, you know, not only is it impactful, I think that this is an emerging technology that you're using. But even since I grew up in the church, as you both did, and from a young age, the thing that was always that was always on my mind and stuck with me was that the plan of God made sense to me, the narrative made sense. And when I would speak to my friends in the in the religious community, or sort of, quote, mainstream Christian community, one of the points of confusion for me was it never seemed like that narrative made sense. There are very key things missing, you know, this idea that you have this life to, to choose to follow God or not. And if you choose not to, you're going to hell for all eternity, that all these things that didn't make sense, they weren't born out in Scripture, and there was sort of a built in at times, con, there were contradictions or hypocrisy is in the narrative of many of all of these mainstream face. And I think so when I talk to someone who is atheistic or agnostic, or like you said, on the on the outer bounds of spirituality, I can empathize with most of their hang ups about religion, most of it is well founded. And but when you get the chance to talk to them, and you say, absolutely, that your problem with that group or that group is, is completely reasonable. But that's what God's plan is not like that God's God has a plan. This is not the only day of salvation. This is his plan for world peace. This is why there's innocent suffering, not the reason why that you hear from all these other groups is that mankind chose to, to take onto themselves and knowledge of good and evil. And so we cause the suffering, God has given us complete freewill and autonomy. And the suffering is our own making all these all these narrative components to things that, when strung together have an enormous impact, because it's rooted in truth and rooted in Scripture, as opposed to the things that do not connect, I think, with the average person are rage, rightfully so because the narrative has holes in it. I love the fact that you all are emphasizing that point. And I think there's also a, from the outside observer perspective, it feels like you're treating the average person or interacting with you with a great deal of respect and trying to meet them where they are, as opposed to trying to beat them over the head with certain doctrinal things or saying, well, these activities are sinful, or this is what the Bible says about that. Which is, there could be true points. But if the person you're talking to has no frame of reference with regard to the Bible, or really doesn't care, that's not where you're going to hit them, you have to hit them with that with the truth of the narrative.
1:02:55
And that's such an important point. I'm sure Tim might want to chime in. But that's such an important point, this concept that we have moved from a, from a Christian world to a post Christian world, from what amounts to post one world and there's been some big shifts and those shifts has meant the way we communicate as to be different people not believe in the capital T truth, but a lowercase t truth. Truth is not objective. It's subjective. It's not so much the hard doctrines. Now it's the soft sentimentalism, and this is we see this manifest in the churches message today maybe with emphasis on social gospel that we see so prominent in other churches, and but that's just the thing, if your main currency of communicating, somebody is Catholic, choose with a cup of tea and doctrine, of course, is important. I mean, the church is responsible for that. But if you leave with that as your main currency, you're just not going to grab the minds. So this is something that Tim and I have put a lot of thought into is like, Well, how do you communicate truth if it's to an incredulous generation that don't accept any metanarratives? They just like, Well, you know, I do me, you know, I do my truth. Okay. Right. That sounds great. Well, let's, let's see, when I get salsa, just take a crack Genesis, and let's see where that took us. But the point about it is, is that there's been a shift in the way people process information. I guess, I'm speaking generally here. And as one Robert McKee is a script writer, he said, That story is the currency of human contact. He said it is it is through stories that we understand our identity, our history and which we transmit our values. And so when I say story, I'm not talking about airy fairy stuff like that. I didn't know Humpty Dumpty fell off a wall or a snow white or I don't know what is a good American fairy tale I don't know what you guys got your into
1:04:44
over there, but you struggle on this one. I want to hear what you come
1:04:47
up with Grinch. But you know, I don't want to go into Christmas on us. But there will be there'll be others. But the point. The point is, it's in the story form that people won't be able to accept and that there something about that narrative allows you to, I think transcend the issues that people have with truth and be able to look at something in a narrative form and think they're more willing to accept something. And so when we go back to Scripture, and this is something that our educational material focuses on, we are not a church. Therefore we, of course, doctrine informs what we what we talk about. But it is not it is not what we lead with, you know, we're not here to establish ABC doctrine, you can get that from your church and your minister. We're here to be able to talk about the narrative of God, the story of God from Eden, in Genesis to Eden story in Revelation, and all those things. In between, I mean, the gospel of the kingdom of God. When you look at all the parables that Jesus talked about, he's talking about things that often reflect that a narrative idea. So that is something that you alighted on, I just, it just grabbed me, I thought I would just jump in there. And I think it's something that's important to our educational philosophy, and something that will hopefully connect with people very much.
1:06:07
Absolutely. And just a final thing to that. I mean, God communicates through narrative. I mean, the Bible is a narrative of humanity, both past, present and future. So we're hardwired to understand through narrative form. Yeah.
1:06:24
And the another interesting thing here, just by way of background, obviously, we talked a bit about Tim's background professionally, but Richard is an educator, he's a teacher by trade. So it's also really cool and encouraging when, when I see people doing what they've already built a skill set in their lives. And, and taking that in you putting it to work in a way to serve God's people and creative ways. I mean, and it's one of those things where I think, when you're young, when maybe you haven't had that experience, and you want to do something, but you don't mind, I have a direction to go with. I want to be engaged in the church, I want to do a project or whatever it is. And sometimes you just need to be patient and let sort of life play out. Because for me, you know, my backgrounds in nonprofit management is what my master's is in. And then church, God network, you wind up getting inspired by what you see in your professional life, in concert with what you see in the church, and what you've learned over the years. And it's really cool to see another group of people putting those skills to work for God the same way, you know, back in back in the day and row wise date, someone who had a an immense background in marketing and communicating, when you think about it, communicating narrative, implicitly or explicitly narrative to a wide population to get God's plan across. And, Tim, you mentioned, God working in narrative, I think, really, narrative has always been the most important mechanism to get any sort of idea or movement or product line or cup, anything across, whether we realize it or not, and into Richards point, I think especially So now, when we don't have that sort of shared frame of reference, of what truth is, or even at its most rudimentary levels. But with that, you know, we've had a lot a great conversation about what you all are doing about the International Center for world peace, the VR platform, and Ezekiel’s vision. So where can people find you now?
1:08:32
Yeah, so primarily, you can find us on various different sites, primarily would be, we're gonna have a Facebook page, so you can like us on Facebook, you can check out our website ICF wp.org. We're gonna have a YouTube channel, and Instagram. And also, if you already installed space, will we're going to be on all space. So yeah,
1:09:00
excellent. And I know you all are gonna be somewhere it'll be a lot of places. And we're going to be featuring you all on church of god network and be listed under our resource center. And I'm sure once the I know you all are starting a crowdfunding initiative as well. What platforms will that be on?
1:09:22
That will it'll be primarily Facebook and Instagram. We will be sending out basically just sending out our promotional video to various different people in our network. And yeah, so and we also have our homepage as well. So
1:09:45
yeah, you may have already seen our crowdfunding video on the church of god network site, possibly. If not on your on YouTube or it's doing the rounds on Facebook. It probably will end up somewhere In your social media posts list or your inbox somewhere, simply because we share so many common networks, and we're really hoping the network itself will, will generate the interest and people will share something of this with our friends and, and therefore people will, who are watching listening may already have actually
1:10:24
seen it. Absolutely. And also just not only to the plug you all again. But I think for everyone listening and watching that these sorts of things do take time and effort and money to get these things across. And if you do believe in the vision of the International Center for world peace, or church, you got network or any of the various things within the church of God that you think provide value. Taking time to donate to that organization or to help out in some way is incredibly valuable to the, the efforts themselves. And also we were a very, I think, blessed people financially and otherwise, we the Western society, especially, we have even the most busy of us have a lot more free time than people did. 6080 100 years ago, we have a lot that we can give to the Church of God. And I think I commend you both for starting this, this organization. We need many different initiatives like what you're doing. And more people are willing to put their time and effort and money to serve the Church of God. So I thank you for that. And I thank you for being on the church of god network podcast. Appreciate it, you guys. Hopefully we'll see each other in person again soon sometime.
1:11:40
Yeah, I hope so. Thank you.
1:11:41
Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure not only doing the podcast, but getting to know you and, and we really respect also the work of the church, God network. It's great to be able to connect with you. And we're really excited and paying attention to how the church network can be such a positive force in the church of gods and how it can draw people together and community. Excellent. Thank you, guys.