CGN Board Member, Chantelle West, sits down with her long time friend, Julia Stewart. They discuss how an organizational split impacted them emotionally and spiritually and how they chose to maintain their close friendship through it all.
CGN Board Member, Chantelle West, sits down with her long time friend, Julia Stewart. They discuss how an organizational split impacted them emotionally and spiritually and how they chose to maintain their close friendship through it all.
00:11
Welcome to the Church of God network podcast, everybody. My name is Chantelle West. And I am joined by my lovely best friend slash roommate, Julia Stewart. We wanted to talk about something that has been on our hearts and our minds for quite a long time now something that I think might be of interest to you guys. And I feel like it's something that a lot of people will connect to in their art experience. And maybe we can shed some light on a couple of things. Or maybe here process, there's some stuff that we haven't processed through before, and maybe you'll get to hear it as it comes out. So we'll see what happens to the vulnerability. Yes, so what we wanted to discuss today was the split in 2011 2010 2011, if time between the ucg cogwa and kind of discuss our experiences that through.
01:18
And I guess maybe not necessarily discuss the split in the traditional sense that people tend to go towards like, the nitty gritty. And this is what they said, This is what they said. We're not talking about either church. Really? Yeah. It's more so like, what we experienced, in general, how it affected us, because we were both 17 at the time. So we're, we're teenagers. So how it affected us and just how we chose to remain friends. Yeah. During that time. Yeah.
01:59
So Julia, and I have a very interesting friendship, because we grew up pretty much in the same area since the age of what, three or four years old? I think, younger, probably, yeah, I guess younger.
02:13
We were two were two. Yeah, we were two, yes, our friendship can legally rent a car. Well, you know, pay less for renting a car. Yeah,
02:25
we still joke that my first memory of Julia is that our mom brought us to the playground. And I came up to you for a hug, and Julia ran off screaming, because she thought I was scary. And ever since then, I knew we'd be great friends. Well, I
02:42
had no recollection of this. But I like to choose that. I blocked it out in my mind. It was traumatic. It just it takes me a while to get to the hugging stage. And she just likes to start there right in for and I'm like, no, no, we got to be friends for like five years. First, you have to be thoroughly vetted before I'll still hug upon.
03:04
So clearly, we have very different modes of operating here.
03:07
I feel like that's like a perfect example of how different you're like. I'm like, who are who I you know everything about you? Can I trust you? Let me do a background check. And then I'll get back to and maybe we go hug eventually.
03:22
Yeah, it's true. I mean, getting her mom to even say that she somewhat liked me was like a trial. I don't think I even knew if she liked me or not until I was probably about 12 or 13 years old. Like, the reason I knew that she actually liked me is because I used to force a hug upon her every single weekend. And for years, and so I guess a couple weekends in a row. I forgot to hug her. And she came up to you when we can cause so fine once you've been I haven't gotten a hug in a while. And I looked at her and I said she was quiet. And I was like you like my hugs, don't you? And she was like, I was like, oh
04:11
my mother is clearly where I get this from but I am slightly better than her. Yes, slightly better.
04:18
But so many warm, warm feelings of being rejected or being rejected, then it means so much more when we were accepted. Ah, these are my attachment wounds coming out right now
04:32
are secretly accepted the whole time. She just doesn't want to let you know exactly. She felt like I needed to work for it. Yeah, prove, prove you're there for the long haul. And I would say I'm pretty similar in that way. But anyway, back to
04:46
the story. Yeah, so we grew up best friends since we were two and kind of just did life together pretty simply.
04:56
I mean, I feel like our friendship kind of ebbed and flowed depending because you know, as your kids are going through different things, or a lot of times, it depends on who your parents hang out with. You know, like, maybe they hang out more with this friend's parent, just because you know, they're better friends. But we've always we've always been friends. Yeah, always been really good friends since we were two. So I don't remember like, not knowing you.
05:21
mean either. You've just always been there. You always goopy. But, yeah, so And it's funny, because I think we had a very, we had a really interesting church experience, because we had so many young people in our congregation, like a lot of friends. And a lot of like, in the teen group, we at least had like, 20 plus people, when we were 20, which
05:52
I and I'm sure it's for you too. Like, we felt like that was normal. Yeah, I mean, we thought was normal to have like a large group. And then like for basketball and volleyball, we can have like multiple teams and having like, these big team outings. And but I mean, I think as I've gotten older, I realized throughout the years, that has not really been the case for most rich areas. And to give a little context, we live in the Fort Worth Texas area, and Texas does like a yearly like bi annual basketball and volleyball tournaments. And they've been doing that since my parents were teenagers. Yeah. And they consistently kept that up. So I have a ton of memories of doing that and being with like, a lot of people my age.
06:37
Yeah. So that was definitely I feel like we were almost raised in a very naively like oh, well, it almost in a way. I always felt like United just was the church. I never even really thought about any other organizations outside of United at that, like growing up. It was like I knew that worldwide existed. And I knew that there was a split. But outside of that, like I just had no actual awareness of other churches at all, like I, I don't know, like, I just I had no memories of that. I think you had a different experience.
07:16
So in my family. So I guess it'd be good point. I mean, not that it matters for this. But Chantelle goes to cogwa. And I go to United. So even so she was saying like she you don't really he didn't think of outside United you just like, I go to church, and this church, and this is just normal. So in my, under my circumstances, my we went to United in my family, it was my parents, my grandparents on my mother's side, and of course, myself and my siblings. But then on my dad's side, they always, I mean, besides, when worldwide was around, they've always gone to a different church of God. So that had always been a huge part of my life in church, being aware and knowing other organizations were out there. So yeah, which I'm kind of
08:14
jealous of, in some ways, like, looking back, because we didn't really talk about it that much. I remember you kind of told me that your grandparents and different people in your family, like just didn't go to United. But I guess I and they were still in the church. But I I guess I had some family members who, they still kind of believed it. But they just didn't go anywhere. They were basically just like, they studied in their own home. And they almost didn't trust any organ or any type of like formal organization at all. Because they just had they they felt like they were just so burned that they couldn't trust people again, which is really sad. But yeah, whenever you talk about that, I always just kind of projected that onto just kind
09:00
of like common interests. Yeah. And you kind of just like, so
09:03
I don't. But yeah, so I felt like in a lot of ways we kind of grew up in a slightly naive, like, you're in a bubble. Totally. Which
09:14
I don't hate the bubble. i There's so many things that I love about the bubble we lived in.
09:21
Yeah, it was very safe. And we had a great group of friends who I feel like we were all really good influences on each other.
09:30
Like, that's also the other thing even though we had a lot of teens, like, we were all not to be like, I was a great kid. I was a great kid. And everybody was a pretty great kid there. And so we didn't have like the black sheep of the congregation, the congregation by any means. And so we but I think of not jumping too much here. But I think that helped. Because we had like year 17 years as you're 17 During this What happened 17 years of like, fostering really good, strong friendships. Because it's not like Chantel is my only friend I keep up with who goes to cogwa. I other, I have several other really good friends that go to cogwa. And I think because we had 17 years of fostering, like, really good, strong relationships, we've been able to keep them up. Right? Yeah. And it also
10:27
helps that, I mean, we're still in the same area. So it's easy to kind of visit each other. I think it's a lot more difficult to foster and keep up the relationships with with those who are outside of our area, and are not in I mean, it's hard enough as it is to like, keep up with people in your own in your own congregation on congregation verse, even in your own organization, like, oh, like, where are you one of the fees? Oh, we might get to go to the fees to say me, you know what I mean? Like, it's tough, but I mean, it's not impossible. Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, you're so right. I think not just friendship, but it almost felt like more like a family. I felt like it was like my church family. And so
11:12
yeah, like it was the feelings and how you're always more attached to the people than like, an organization. Which, I mean, makes sense, especially since we were young. Yeah. And, I mean, I think it was really good, like beneficial, or it protected us that we were young. I mean, we were still we were 17. So we were teenagers, and we're starting on that verge of like life, wherever you're starting to, like, do a lot more we were driving. I had actually started college already. I think you were in college, too. We're doing but we were like becoming adults. But I still felt like we were young enough that when the split was happening, there was a lot we didn't understand which I'm like, I'm grateful for because all the politics of it and all the, like, online, you know, all that online fighting or whatever. Like, I was never a part of it. Because I was just flipping computers. Yeah,
12:19
and I think that's like, the underlying thing of it was just, I think, okay, so here's my question, when, when is the first time that you remember being like, aware that something was going down? Um, so Okay, so the split happened in like, December, January time, approximately, it was
12:40
only like a little bit before that, because I would definitely, I mean, I am not. I'm not privy to a lot of things that happened behind the scenes. But I think, at least at church, it wasn't like, it wasn't like it because I know in some congregations, it was months about things like the minister or deacons or elders like talking about it. And there was already like, creating friction and tension and divides. And I felt like our minister at the time, he did like a really, at least through my memory did like a pretty good job of like, not talking about it. And really, I feel like the one when I realized something was going on, was it was through him, but it was pretty late. It was literally right about to happen. I feel like and he wasn't there was nothing blatant. But it was just like this. He there's like these few, like keywords that made me go.
13:44
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember I want to say that it was around Thanksgiving time, because we were visiting my grandparents. And I just remember my parents and my grandparents kind of just like, talking amongst themselves. Like it just it seemed like serious. I think it's good to point out like
14:05
your father, he's an elder and your grandfather was, um, he was a minister. My family. Like my dad. He wasn't. He wasn't a deacon. Like there's no I mean, my grandfather was a deacon. Yeah. But he went to a separate congregation. So like, I didn't have maybe some more of like, insider stuff that would naturally come with those positions.
14:30
Yeah. So I definitely I think I knew something was going on a little bit earlier than most people. Not that I don't think it wasn't like my family was gossiping at all. It was just it was more like, oh, man like this is something's going on here. really concerned. We need to pray about it. I remember, like certain papers coming out. And my parents like reading them and even telling me they're like, you know, Chantel like, you're 17 like you should probably read those two and like, you need a chair. thinking like, What is your perspective? Like, because it's so important that you start making your own decisions and start thinking about this on your own, which I'm really glad that they did that. And I do kind of was like, okay, and I kind of read through it. And I'm like, I'm just so confused. Like, it was just so it was this long PDF about like, who said what, who did what? And all this stuff? And like, why this person? And why would they took this stance and blah, blah, blah. And then it just, it was strange. It was like, yeah, it just felt like there was a lot of stuff that was kind of happening under the surface that we hadn't been aware of for a long time.
15:35
Yeah. And like, this is what's Uh, okay, so 11 Your living issue years ago? Yeah. Like, because you're talking like that paper, different papers and stuff, like your parents, like, oh, maybe you should look at this. On my side, it was my mom was more of the person who was like, reading different things, and she would contact different people. Because you know, just as like, lame on the layman, you're just like, yeah. And so my mom was more of that one of just like, looking into things. And I remember, I didn't really, I read some stuff. But honestly, like, I think Facebook was a huge part. Because there was so much like, blogs, I wrote, like, I'm not gonna mention the name of somebody's blog. So they are burned in my memory. There was some blogs that were or vlog, no blogs, blogs that where people are like, saying this side, and this side was just like this. And like Facebook fights for going on. And I we were warriors. started early. I remember seeing like, some posts like that, and sometimes I would read them. And maybe I would feel one way about one post. But I would say overall, in that beginning portion, and the start of the split, like those first few weeks, and honestly, months would and I'll get into that later. But like, I was just confused. Yeah,
17:00
yeah, it was super confusing. And at the time, I was dating a guy who, it was just interesting, because like, my parents were seeing one perspective. And his parents were seeing like, the exact opposite perspective. And so both of us, like we were kind of super confused, or like, well, this is what they're saying. And this is what they're saying. And that doesn't line up. And how was that possible? You know, and like, it just it felt very, like it didn't make any sense. I just, it felt like there was clearly stuff from both sides that were messy. And it was just, I think at that age, I think I also got to a point where I'm like, I guess I'll just go where my parents go, you know, like, I still live at home, I'm still a dependent. They're dependent. And so that kind of ultimately was at that point was kind of my decision whenever things really started getting to that breaking point, because I do think there was like one sermon, like you mentioned earlier, that our Minister, I still feel like he did a pretty good job. But it felt it was like something was different about that sermon. Yeah. And I remember looking specifically looking around the congregation and being like, what is going on? Like, This feels weird, like there is there was like the sense of like, anxiety in the room, like there was this feeling of like feeling of like it was all headward Yeah, it was very palpable. I remember looking over and there was a gentleman who I knew very well, and he was just like scribbling a bunch of notes, just like clearly unhappy with what was being said. And I'm just like, man, like, what is going on here. And I remember looking at my parents, and my mom said something like this, and she had tears in her eyes. And she said, Honey, this is probably the last time we're all going to be together. And I just like,
18:55
and as like a 17 year old who has no idea what's going on. That is just like it was heartbreaking. Yeah, yeah, definitely heartbreaking. earth shattering. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm trying to think. So. My experience during the whole split. Time was actually very interesting for me, because I was going through baptism counseling, actually, great time to go through baptism counseling. Yep. So why? I don't know if I even I mean, this is important to my story, but maybe you should start like, so your family and my family initially. I mean, went to cogwa. I mean, I think it's important to point out with our congregation, I would say 75% of the people
19:52
went with cogwa. Yeah. And our minister at the time also went with
19:57
Cogwa. And I know like a lot of times Depending on who your minister was that super affected who went where. And so I remember those first few weeks, we met somewhere else. And I remember going to cogwa like my family went to cogwa. And then I remember, which I still don't know how I feel about this. I mean, ultimately, it worked out for me, but so we used we had church at 3pm. Like, and then car rent rented the same building at 10am. It was a shame. It's so so you have cogwa 10 a m services. And so you do the whole setup. Some church, go on there, do set up, do church services, break it down, and then literally passing in the parking lot. You had the ucg people come in you like at that still that original 3pm time because it was ucg is contract, you know? So it's like that passing in the parking lot. Yeah, like, yeah,
21:17
thanks for like, I feel like at first it was a little bit awkward. But then I was like, actually really grateful for it. Because I was still like I was, I get to see them. So I was like, stop, and I give people hugs. Like it's so good to see. Like, catch up a little bit.
21:31
Yeah. For me. It wasn't, it became not awkward for me, because I actually went to both churches for the first year. So we were in the same cogwa. ucg we're in the same church, I mean, the same building for a whole year. And I for that whole year. Went to both, actually. So I would. Yeah, it was. I mean, I'm sure there were some weeks where I like only went to ucg, or only went to cogwa because he was law church. So I went to both. So it worked out great for me, because it took me that entire year to figure out what I was going to do. Because like, that's also one of the things that in general, kind of irritates me about the split, or maybe just just the whole thing was like, people are confused. And it's like, take aside. Yeah, you know, and it's just like, yeah, what's going on? And so you kind of maybe like gut instinct, go this way. Or you go here, because you don't like those people who went there. This person said, This you talked to and so you just said, like you had to choose. And I mean, I think that
22:50
it's almost like a mother and a father being like to their children choose a side like for them? Yeah,
22:56
it's kind of like, by the way, there's been years of tension. And we haven't let you guys know that at all. And Oh, you thought everything was great. But no, we're getting divorced tomorrow. And you must choose by tomorrow, where you're going?
23:08
Who are you going to live with money? Your debt? Yeah, who
23:10
do you want? So
23:11
anyway, it was like, How is this even possible to?
23:16
It's like, I feel like I was still going, what was going on? Like, I was still getting to the point of realizing that there was tension, and that there is issues going on. And then they're like, Okay, choose. Like, that's what it felt like not saying, That's not putting like yeah, saying ministers or elders or whatever, or people in congregation are saying those things. But that's what it
23:44
felt like felt like, yeah, it's just like, oh, by the way,
23:47
this is going on. You have to pick something now. Yeah. And as as anyone, it was just like, what what what is this? So But thankfully, I mean, for a lot of people, it was super awkward. But for me, that I got to go to both for a year was really, I am glad. I mean, awkward. Super awkward for a lot of people, but for me,
24:13
it worked out great. Yeah. And I think it's interesting, because there was a couple times that I went to both you I definitely did not go consistently like you did to both of them. I mostly primarily went to Kawa, and I think a lot of ways are a lot of the reason that my family was a little bit more just like they've kind of made a decision and they stuck with it was because my grandfather and my dad were like ministering elder so and so there was a little bit more of that. I don't wanna say like contractual obligation, but it's almost like
24:48
there was more of a defining line for your family. Yeah. And your experiences and your perspective, there's more of a defining line with them. There was not this huge defining line. was the immediate defining line with my family because like I said, we were just lame, and we weren't in the know. And so we were just church members. And so to kind of like, sort through and process things
25:13
we took the whole year. Yeah. So it's very, very
25:20
interesting. Interesting time. Is that Yeah, well, I guess to
25:28
do you remember, it's so interesting, because I remember during that time, that was also during our senior prom. And my boyfriend at the time, wanted to come to prom, and visit. And it was so funny because they were very united. And we were very cogwa. And basically, his parents wanted us or him if he came to go to the cogwa prom to still go to United Services. She was like, totally, like, I'm cool with that. Like, I love all these people I've seen. It's been a minute since I've been to you and I, let's go. This is awesome. And so we went. And it was just, it was it. It was great. Because I love like, I felt like everybody was so welcoming. There was one person that came up and said something really awkward. And it was pretty uncomfortable. Like, oh, at least one of you and your family has since and then like other people came up. They were so sorry. Like, none of us feel that way. Like that is not appropriate. This is like
26:35
this is like a year after this was about a year after Yeah. So I mean, because it basically was a divorce. Feelings are still very raw. After a year really?
26:45
Yeah, for sure. And it was like, I just remember thinking like, oh, it was so shocking to me, I think because I, I kind of had just accepted what had happened a little bit easier. I think maybe like than you did, it was just, it was kind of just like, oh, man, this sucks. I hate it. It's not fair. But this is just like where we're going. And we're gonna move forward with it. It was definitely awkward with the situation with the person that I was dating. So we were kind of having to navigate that. And there was a lot of like, I was hearing from his perspective, like, you know, all will be careful. There are people who are like sheep are wolves in sheep's clothing,
27:27
they're going to try to draw you in. So you need to be really like cautious. And so there was an unfortunate, I feel like a lot of the adults projected onto the teenagers a lot of that stuff like they, they almost like discouraged the young people to hang out with each other, even if they were in different orgs, which is super frustrating.
27:47
I know, I would say that, at least in our area. That was not the case. That was the case with a lot of people, a lot of families split a lot of friendships with a lot of like, people are dating, split like and there was a lot I know that there's some people that were like, don't spend time with this person. We thankfully had very sane parents. Like I would say, overall, all the parents of people in our group were never like, don't talk to them, nurse and know
28:21
that I've never once happened. No, not at all. It was like, it was kind of just that, like, this is a horrible situation. We just have to choose but ultimately, like, they're great people and we love them, we we might not be on the same page. But like that doesn't make any difference. And
28:39
what happened was not our fault. So to take something that is not our fault, and in some ways, kind of not our problem. And to be like, You can't do this, you can't see this person is totally nonsensical. And I'm glad our parents were that way. Yeah, like I'm very thankful that it wasn't like Don't Don't say that.
29:03
Because I do feel I feel like brokenhearted for the people who didn't have that experience who did really experience the rejection and especially I think, especially for young people that's really hard when you have such a small group of people and that you feel close to and like have like mine with and then when that gets like close even smaller. It's just it's very difficult to have to deal with. No, it doesn't. And so I think that even that made a lot of people even more cynical of other people either I think, I think the split did one of two things. It either like for me, it was actually healthy for me because it helped me realize, oh, there's other people out there. There's Other organizations out there, I don't know what it was, but it was like this light bulb came on. Because like I started hearing about other people talking about like, CGI and like all these different these names, these acronyms aren't What are you talking about are global and how that was. And we’re
30:18
very good at coming up with new church names, because there's so many
30:23
do all acronyms we're so good at. And it's just so funny to me that like, that was like the moment that my brain just went, Oh, there's other people out there like, like, I don't know why I was so naive. But in a lot of ways that kind of opened my mind to be like, cool, like, who else is out there, like I want to meet them. And I am, it made me more open to not just like, only seeing and wanting to be around, like, obviously I was friends with people outside of our church, like, you know, my school friends, stuff like that. But like, I just didn't even sink or consider that there was other people out there in different organizations of like mind. And that kind of was exciting for me, I didn't really know how to get in contact with them. But I feel like it was just kind of like a little nugget. But I feel like the opposite happened to some people where they got so like, it was almost traumatized that they were like, I don't trust anyone outside of my org. It's either like, if they're not in my org, like I won't either won't associate with him or I won't even date someone in a different organization. Like, I will only date someone in this organization. And that's it. And everybody has their own prerogative to make those decisions. That's fine. But I don't know. I just I felt like it just they closed their world in their circle even
31:44
more. I think it's interesting because like, like you said it like plants it and then getting was like, I mean, the split was not positive. But you will this is kind of shows like your personality and nature more. Like you were just like, oh, like there's more out there. And you know, all those things like for me? I mean, I'll be honest, since we're supposed to be honest, I was extremely bitter person about the split, like, really, really bitter and angry about it all. Like it took me years to kind of process Yeah, through it. And it's like I wasn't it's like you can be I was not bitter towards people. Like individual people, I was not bitter towards them. I was collective like, I was bitter towards collectively mankind. I think
32:47
of man, the stupidity as man, and how we just like screw up so profoundly.
32:56
We're so great at screwing up well, okay, so to get. So like I mentioned previously, I was going through baptism counseling at the time. And it was. So like we mentioned, like, for at least like for the first several weeks, I went to only cogwa. And I went to cogwa, because it felt safe and normal, because most of the people went with cogwa. So when you walked in the building, it felt like, felt like home, it felt normal, it felt like almost all the same people are there and those that were missing, it could have been that amount of people can be gone at any weekend because of trips or whatever, like it felt so normal and safe. That I immediately was like I was I was going to Cogwa because it was like this protection form for my brain in a way like so I remember for weeks, just going to cogwa and only really wanting to go to cogwa because it felt it felt normal. It felt like what I had grown up with my entire life. And then so after a few weeks, so actually, I would say the first two weeks or so, my parents went with cogwa. And then after that they started going to ucg and cogwa. I don't think I don't not every weekend they were going to both but they started going to ucg and I was very resistant to going to ucg but it had nothing to do with like
34:38
people or the people or this split itself like Oh, I think cog was right and right cog was the way to go. It was literally like, these are the people I've known my entire life. This is like safety for me. I could pretend like nothing's happened. Yeah, that's what it was for me. Which I still like probably is what happened for me more because it felt normal and safe. Like, it was sad and painful to not be in community with those few people who did choose to leave. But I think it was easier to just kind of like, pretend like everything was
35:13
fine. Oh, it was super easy to pretend like everything was fine. And so like I said, like, I went to college it probably for six weeks. And I remember, because my parents were going to UC G more or more than I was. And so I remember my parents saying, oh, you should go to UC J. Like, not like, Oh, you need to choose Use EEG because they did not know what they were doing for at least six months, because they were still sorting through things. So they're like, oh, you should try to go to use EEG. And I was like, because it was terrifying to me. And I didn't know why per se. So I remember finally deciding. Okay, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go to ucg. And I specifically made sure that I'm shows I'm kind of like a lone wolf in a lot of ways. I specifically asked my parents not to go want to win. Like, I wanted to go into the experience by myself. Because, I mean, I how I process things. It's like, Yeah, I'm an island.
36:26
Like I wanted, I didn't want like them their perspective at all I
36:30
wanted, I just would, I just wanted to be alone. I just don't know. I'm a lone wolf. Kind of. I was like, I want to be alone. I don't want you to come. So I remember. It's been 11 years, but still very emotional for me. I remember. And it's in the same building, which I think helped in some ways, because I got to see just the contrast. So the morning I still went, I went to cogwa that day, so I went to cogwa. There's like over 100 people there. I mean, it felt normal, except it was early in
37:06
the morning. How dare they that was painful having to wake up that early and go to church. I tell you what, when you're used to three o'clock services for your entire life,
37:22
But I do remember there was a lot of grumbling about that, yes,
37:24
Anyway, I went to I went to cogwa. And that morning, and then I remember I went out to lunch with you and all of her other friends went to lunch. And then I remember you guys were like, gonna go hang out because we were finally driving on our own. We just started doing that. And I went, you know, I said, I'm actually going to go to ucg. So I drove my car over back to the church. And church was going to start in like 15 minutes. And so that morning, there had been a very full parking lot. And there was people and like, how the church hall is set up. There's like this long hallway in the front. I was like at a youth orchestra is a youth orchestra or whatever. But there's like this long hallway with like glass doors and you walk in and like, you know, it's usually a lot of people usually there's like a lot of people in that hallway in. Yeah, so anyway, I drive back to the same building. And the parking lot is nearly empty. There's like 10 cars 15 cars, and it's like a pretty good sized parking lot. And I remember just being like, like, strange. Yeah. And then I remember walking up to the building and going in and it is absolutely silent. in there. You could probably hear a butterfly flapping its wings. It was so silent in there. and I were just stepping in and it just felt weird. Yeah. And I were there was this couple that they came around the corner. I think Julia it's so good to see you. And on the inside I felt like I died because it only been like four or five, six weeks. And in that moment I realized I forgot that I forgot they existed because I'd been so caught up in like my self protection and like oh, I'm gonna go where it's normal. Like I literally forgot this couple existed. And it just was like soul crushing. And so I remember going to sit down and this it's a pretty big room and it it's never like full it wasn't never focusses huger but it was like there was there's a lot of there's a lot of people and and so I go in there are and they're in this huge room, there's like 35 people, scattered, because everybody because we're creatures of habit, we always sit in our same seat. So even though there's only like 30 people in the room, 35 people in the room, everybody's sitting in their same seat see of this person here and the event like 20 rows back, there's somebody here, and there's somebody over there. And I remember just sitting down, it was only like 35 people, and the sermon is going on. And it's very, I don't remember what it said. But I just know that the speaker was very, very emotional. And I remember just like my heart racing, and I felt panicked. And so I don't, I don't know, distraught, sick, heartbroken, all the things. And I remember getting up during church, because I literally, I felt like I was being smothered. I got up, I ran out to the parking lot. And I broke down, like, sobbing, crying, because it finally I finally understood what had happened. Not this organization says this, this organization says this, all the political stuff, whatever, I still don't understand it. And it's very, it's all hazy in my mind. But I finally understood what had really happened. And that was that. Man, like, I mean, we I know this, and I knew it, but it's like, I understood that the split had come from sin, like a deep, deep rooted sin, the sin of I mean, I mean, mankind. We're so we're so sinful. And just
42:03
just brokenness, yes. inability to communicate helpfully.
42:09
And, and yeah, and it's, at the time because I was going through baptism counseling. Like, I think a lot of people when they're going through baptism counseling, they are like, oh, like, Am I worthy? You know, like, I didn't necessarily think about that too much. But I remember being out there. So I don't know if I've ever cried like that sense, like, gut wrenching sobs. And I just remember thinking like,
42:37
if this is what we do with God, if we allow ourselves to do this, with God, with the Holy Spirit, because I wasn't questioning, I wasn't questioning my faith. I wasn't questioning that the Holy Spirit existed or that God existed or his truth was the truth. I was not questioning that at all. But I was just like, if this is what we do, with, with God with God, with the Holy Spirit, I don't want to know what happens.
43:13
Without it, it I think, in a lot of ways, I see as I've gotten older, the inability for people in the church of God to be able to communicate healthfully and to like, recognize when something isn't right,
43:31
and actually to face it and reconcile. People in the church. So are so headstrong, and they, it's easier to pretend like everything's fine, until all of a sudden, everything's falling apart. And then everybody's like, Well, what happened? Why is it falling apart? It's because it's like, no, it's like a marriage, right? Like, if you just like sweep all the issues on the rug forever, eventually, it'll blow up, like there's nothing you can do about it. And I think that's just I think it's a human quality. And I think it's something that we in the church really, really struggle with, is being able to like own up and say, Okay, this is happening. This is happening on my side, let's sit and let's talk about this like adult,
44:14
let's talk about this. And let's recognize maybe our own pride, our own sin in this I have this issue, she's got this issue and you have this issue. And so I just remember being like realizing the Senate like really, you know, you have those moments of pure like play god given clarity, where you finally understand before you're sucked back into just saying things surface level, like that was my moment of seeing like the sin Yeah. And just being an understanding like, how deeply ingrained Yeah, it was in the situation and in all of us, and I was not going to put my Your Life, or the control or the way my life went, in the hands of these organization heads, I was not going to hand over my life to them, and be like, you can decide these things for me because I was like, I don't know what's happening. I see this, I see the sin. But and because of that, I'm like, You're not going to tell me who I'm going to see. Yeah, or what I'm
45:25
going to do in that area. Yeah. Right, you know, which I don't think is an unhealthy thought, I actually think that is healthy to have that like, to not be almost so beholden to an organization, that you're blind to the fact that the organization is run by imperfect humans who can make mistakes, who, sometimes we have to own up to those mistakes. And, you know, so I think there is a danger in, in being like, just absolutely, like, no matter what this is, like, I'm gonna go on their side, even if I don't look at all the fat I just, this is what the Church says. So therefore, we will do so this is what this organization says, right? Yeah, instead of critically thinking and looking at all the
46:18
split really in for you to as human, like it made us be more better thinkers, really, definitely better thinkers and being like, will you that's interesting, like, Oh, let me look at this different point of view. Maybe I don't quite stand at all understand that or I don't I don't agree with that. Or maybe what about this other thing? Right, you know, so?
46:43
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, because I remember like, after a couple of years, it start. It's weird how, like, quickly, things become normal. Again, for people, I think humans are pretty good at adapting, adapt and establish new habits, and move forward. I mean, I think it's never felt normal, not going to church with you on a regular basis. But we made it work. And we made it get to a place that wasn't on because we we so appreciate each other's friendship, like, I was over at your your house all the time, and we still spent so much time together, you like talking on the phone, whatever it was, like, I don't really feel like there wasn't really a beat that we missed as friends.
47:30
No, like there was we never had a time where we didn't speak in. We never had
47:36
that time. It always was just like the same. I do think though, I do you remember, after a couple of years thinking like man, like why is she still not got past this? Because you were still clearly very angry and like, resentful. I was angry for years for a long time. And I even remember, like, I don't know, it's just it was kind of shocking to me. And I didn't quite get it. I didn't understand it. At that point. I think I was a lot more. Clearly I was a lot more immature. And I almost didn't I don't think I had the capacity to understand what you were going through at that point. So I just didn't have the space. I just knew you were hurting. And it was so hard for me to see you going through it. And I also knew that like, like, your mom really was struggling with it. Like it wasn't that she was mad at me. But I think like I reminded her well of things.
48:33
You know what I mean? Like because it's like everybody who goes or went or goes to cogwa. Like I still very much care about those people. I don't obviously I don't see them as much, but I love seeing them, but I will be 100% honest. It took me several years to kind of get to that point. And it wasn't like every time I saw on social until I was like, it wasn't like that, because I knew it wasn't the congregation wasn't those people. Yeah. But it's like, it's a trigger
49:04
for that, like, that painful feeling. Yeah, like it
49:09
will seeing certain people are like seeing maybe it wasn't even certain people per se, but I mean, because I would after that year ucg went elsewhere because there wasn't many people and so they joined with the Dallas congregation.
49:27
And what made you kind of choose to start attending more with ucg versus cogwa. Um, after like that first, like really intense experience.
49:39
I don't know. I don't know.
49:42
Because I feel like it'd be too much of a focus on this, you know, not like it'd be too much of a focus on right. Ultimately, you just I did I did choose UC J. And I would go visit cogwa I actually went to cogwa pretty frequently those first several yours. Well, also I did. I fled the country. She did. Partly because of the split. Yeah, I did see like, we we handled things very differently. Failure really. I was, I mean, like I said, I was super bitter about things for years. And I was in I guess it was that was going on during my freshman year of college. And since I was angry, and bitter and processing things for several years, I was fed up with church organizations. Yeah, sick of it. Because those first few years, things were still very much like, because it was raw for everyone. It was like, Oh, well, this paper paper this person said this and, or there's still like, like, back and forth at each other bickering and and like, it just felt so light. Yeah, I'm like, Are we a bunch of like politics fighting here and like underhanded, like, it also felt like
51:10
we're like in first grade. And, like, it just felt super immature.
51:15
And all these and I mean, I understand because the hurt feelings were there and very intense and very valid in the sense of like, just everybody was hurting. But I just the back and forth. And it did not help. My angry, my anger, my anger, your angry properly. That I was so fed up with church organizations that I it made, it was a huge aspect of why I decided to move to Thailand. And I stayed there for three years, I came back to visit. And then when I visited, I went to ucg and cogwa pretty evenly because then I felt like I was not in their daily problems or in the daily things going on. Because I lived literally across the ocean. And so I wasn't even aware.
52:05
Yeah, so you kind of like almost like, I need a disconnect. Like you kind of just needed to disk
52:11
I needed to disconnect. And then when I returned because I would come back for like, two months before I went back. I got to just purely be excited about seeing people and not think about all the pain that went with the whole situation it like it was. Yeah, I don't know. I just wasn't I was able to not focus on the pain and just be focused on being excited to see people on both sides. Yeah. And I did that for three years.
52:40
Crazy, man. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like
52:44
the only reason why I went to Thailand. But to be honest, it was like a huge reason why I left. I mean, I always wanted to live abroad. But the like the split, I actually remember. I was on campus. And I saw some person make some dumb post on Facebook. And also it was right before Atonement. I'm pretty sure it was Atonement. I don't think it was I don't think it was a spring holidays. Yeah, cuz I was in my false a false at my fall semester, sophomore year, whatever. And they said something. And they had a lot. There's a lot of people commenting on I'm just like this whole like mess going on. And I remember just talking to my mom about it and being so angry about it. And it wasn't just to clarify, it wasn't something that a cogwa person said it was something somebody in ucg so I wasn't like oh, it wasn't that it was somebody ucg who said something that I was like, yeah, like just like that. Oh, so angry, and I'll stop
53:51
bringing it up again. Like, I'm like making more confusion or especially I'm
53:55
like I before I told that. Like, that's all about like reconciliation people and you're like, fighting about something and bringing something up. And it was at that time. I remember sitting there and I told my mom I was like I'm gonna leave
54:13
not the church because it's never been I've because unfortunately a lot of people left their faith. There's a decent people who just didn't love a
54:26
church, I think especially like the millennials really struggled with that, because they saw a lot of the hypocrisy of like, they're like, Well, we are saying to love your neighbor or that you're saying to do all these things, and yet you can't even get your act together. So people just had a hard time disconnecting their faith
54:51
with people which you have to do, because people are stupid, stupid if you're, if your
54:57
faith is entangled, With what mankind is gonna do evil is gonna fail every time because we suck.
55:06
I suck every day. Yes, I do something or think something or say something every single day. That irritates me. And I feel like, we're not just irritates me where I go, like, Why did I do that? Yeah, that was dumb. That was sinful. That was selfish. I do that every single day. And I think you mentioning like, a lot of people like couldn't get over the hypocrisy, when I would get really embedded in to my bitterness, which was frequent. I used to have I used to think, okay, Julia, if you took all those men, and you replace them with 100, Julia's would have it things been any different? And I'm like, probably not. Maybe it would have been sooner. Yeah. You know, like, I'm like, if you literally played all those people, Julia, yeah, have 100 Joanne's? No, it'd be just that church, the church organization, or it would be just as screwed up. Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's one thing that really, I think we've always been frustrated when especially young people go, oh, like, once the old people die off. We're gonna make the church so much better, blah, blah, blah. And we're like, no, no, it'll just be different issues. It might not be the same issues, but it'll be different issues. Because no matter what, we are going to screw it up every time unless we are, like, following God, unless we're willing to be humble. And unless we're willing to like, oh, shoot, like, Thank you for pointing that out. You're right. I really messed this up. Like and that's
56:42
And do you know how crazy it is to have like, even like 10 people humble at the same time, no roared does
56:51
go in ebbs and flows. Like, and it's true. Like some, I definitely feel like I guess in seasons where it's, I feel like it's easier for me to take negative feedback and to like, process things and be like, okay, yeah, you're right. They work on. Yeah. And then there's other seasons, where I'm just like, Who do you think you are? Like, tell me what I've shown. You know, like, and it's just? Yeah, I think it's, it's definitely been an interesting process to kind of wrap it up. It, I think now, looking back. I am grateful for it. Because I do think it made us stronger in our face, because it required us to have to process through it. I'm that's the only reason I'm grateful. I'm not grateful for the fact that there was a splitting of family. I think that is something that is so painful, and that we're still dealing with today.
57:51
There's still the it's the ramifications from that. Yeah, I think
57:56
and I think a lot of that was kind of the seed planted for me that I'm of the opinion, like, I don't really see myself as just a member of cogwa. I don't like any more. I now that I'm like, I have so many friends from so many different organizations. Now I've been just blessed by their conversations and gone to church or God, no. Seriously, like, I have just my my perspective. And my understanding has just blossomed since I developed relationships with people a bit outside of my little cogwa bubble. And it's helped me be much stronger Christian, it's helped me be a much more empathetic person. And I just I don't, I don't affiliate myself with just cogwa I am a member of the Church of God. And each place that I visit is a congregation I don't see it as an organization anymore. I'm just I'm going to a Dallas congregation or I'm going to Fort Worth congregation and maybe it has this label, but I don't see it like that. It just seeing it more so like for the people exactly. Rather than like the label. Yeah, I just I just I at this point, I just see it. It's so pointless. Because ultimately, we're all going to be in God's kingdom, we're all going to be working together.
59:16
And it's kind of like, because with you, because I think it's really great that you like go will go into organizations or that you're doing so Cgn like, because it's going to make it easier to work with each other. Like in the kingdom is it I mean, like, really guys, it it to me it sounds insane to be like the, you know, we're spirit beings and I know obviously whenever your mind has changed and you become a spirit, things are gonna be so vastly different. But for that to be our first contact with somebody who went to a different organization and an organization isn't even exist then.
59:53
Seems kind of ridiculous. It is in the grand scheme of things. It is very petty. It is so human. Yeah. Um, which is why we need Jesus Christ in the first place, because we don't know how to deal with our emotions. And that's pretty much it, we're a mess. I really struggled to feel feelings because it hurts.
1:00:15
But through it all, I'm just because I'm just grateful that I have a friend
1:00:20
who is so like, lovely as you. And just even though we do and have had very different opinions and perspectives, and we, I don't feel like we ever had like a big fall, big fight about it or anything. We definitely had hard conversations. Yeah.
1:00:42
And then also, there's just some things that maybe the seems maybe counter intuitive. But in this situation, there are also things that you just don't have to talk about, because maybe you're just not going to change the other person's opinion. And maybe it shouldn't really matter for your relationship. Exactly. Because I mean, I would say there's things concerning the split, that we've never talked about, but I don't see the point in it. And I don't I'm like I don't want to bring all that stuff out. What's the point? Yeah, yeah, there. And I'm not saying there's not a time in place for certain discussions about the split and the nitty gritty, you know, you have a field day about it. I don't want to do it, I have no interest in it.
1:01:24
No, because ultimately, when you get down to it, the most important thing, and what I believe Christianity is, is all about relationships. It's about loving each other and loving God. And if we can't even get that down. Like, we're kind of screwed. So I think that's something that we really need to foster more in the Church of God as a whole is the ability to really love each other, and love each other, even if we don't see eye to eye on it. Well, it comes
1:01:57
down to choosing to choose each other. Yeah, like I decided to, and I decided to choose to still be friends with Chantelle like to not let whatever happened to get away. And I mean, but granted, it's like, it's like you could argue, but it Oh, but it did get in the way. Because you don't see those people as much which I mean, there is some truth to that. But any of the people who like go to cogwa, I'd be very, very happy to see him. But you know, you do naturally drift apart. We don't see each other as much, but I don't think anything ill of them. Yeah, insane for me, because maybe I don't see them very much as much now. But I still would consider that my family. Yeah,
1:02:51
absolutely. For sure. Or you could just move in with someone and then you get to see them all the time. So it doesn't matter what organization you go to. You see them all the other six days a week. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for tuning into our little conversation. Hopefully you got something out of it. Hopefully it made sense. Maybe you had some like aha moments like oh, man, I can totally empathize. And even if you think we're crazy, yeah, you just keep us posted. Feel free to comment, comment down below. Let us know what you think like what your experience was. And you know, I'm just super curious to hear other different people's perspectives and how they grew from the process and how it kind of like shaped them. I think that's always like super important. Thank you.