CGN board members Daniel Russo and Tim Reynolds sit down with Dan Quimby to discuss decision making and the importance of exposure to different perspectives.
CGN board members Daniel Russo and Tim Reynolds sit down with Dan Quimby to discuss decision making and the importance of exposure to different perspectives.
00:10
Welcome to the church of God network podcast, everybody. I'm here with two of my really good friends. And I feel like, Tim, we've been talking about doing this. Since we started doing a podcast actually think you and I referenced other Dan, in our first podcast we've referenced. Yeah, other Dan at least two times in that one, probably, and then what we do with Blake, so now other than is actually on the podcast, Dan Quimby's. Along with Tim Reynolds, and myself, and the we've always wanted to get on the podcast to talk about something where we all disagree, and just like record it, and thought, why not just talking about the topic of disagreement and the importance of different perspectives in terms of our growth and the pursuit of unity and community in the Church of God. So with that, I'd like the audience to get to know Dan a bit more. So Dan, if you can give us a bit of background about your church of God history, that'd be great.
01:11
Sure, I'll make it really brief, give me like 40 minutes. So I grew up in the church as a kid, and around, I'm 40, I just turned 40. So about 1992 ish, 93 ish is when my parents left Worldwide Church of God and then went to global, and then living after that. And then from there, I went out into the world for some years, and did some exploring. And from there kind of came back into living, and then had a couple of other pitstops, which we can maybe get into a little later. But basically, I've had a church of God background, most of my life, and my parents are still in the church, they attend LCG. And along the way, getting some different perspectives, and meaning a lot of different people. I've learned to make a lot of friends from different backgrounds. And that's sort of what we were, we were talking about how that has shaped a lot of my opinions and sort of just the way that I think, not necessarily swaying me to agree with people, but just understanding where people come from and how sure, just because they think differently, doesn't mean that you should ostracize them more, or, you know,
02:25
sure. To, to keep points for people to know going in probably is one that you had, you spend some time in The Restored Church of God in that journey as well. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think I remember you saying that. You were you're a minister there for a bit too, right?
02:44
Yeah, about about a year and a half. So I can I can jump right into that if you want.
02:51
But we're gonna get back to it, bring it back to the the other point that people should know, because it is relevant. And also because it's a pride thing for me, you’re a fellow New Yorker. That's right, which is important for the same discussion. And because I believe when Tim and I did our podcast episode, the first one, I hyped up being a New Yorker like eight times in that podcast, and I got to fell in New York. Ron, you're outnumbered, Tim.
03:15
That's right. Yeah. He has no reason for but he knows pretty well. Yeah. Yeah, I grew up on Long
03:24
grew up in Long Island, New York and my wife did to met her during my journey and years of kind of United Church, we worked together, then got married, and both came back into the church. She's baptized in the church and basically, moved to Tennessee. When was it? We got married in the. So it's been a while, lived in Ohio for a couple of years. Because those were the years we worked for restored both my wife and I worked for restored for a little bit. And yeah, taking that northern perspective and to the south. And
03:58
you, you already demonstrated the ability to adjust for people of differing backgrounds, because you said where you lived correctly first, and then everyone in New York realize you changed it to the incorrect way to say you said, I lived on Long Island, which is the way you should say it in because you knew would confuse people who are from New York. So
04:17
I mean, the real truth of that is I don't know what I'm talking about. It's fair to gather I like the way you said it was better.
04:27
So So with that, let's get right into it. Um, one of the things I think it'd be good to to tell people how we all know each other as well. So maybe we'll start with you to you both were in living together. I'm assuming that's how you got to know each other, correct?
04:45
Yeah. Sure. The first I think the first time we met was maybe a Kansas City weekend.
04:52
I think it was. I think I remember the first time we talked again, yeah, I complimented you on an article your dad wrote.
04:59
Yeah. Yeah, so my dad used to be a minister for living. And
05:04
when you over flatteries Yeah, basically that
05:07
was you know, he's, he's a cool guy. So that's what I thought. Now it's a nightmare. Yeah. Well, but and then yeah, so that was what early 20 arts 20
05:25
I don't know, long time ago,
05:27
like at least 10 years ago, a decade. And then I moved to Tennessee and 2018 from Missouri. And yeah, so Dan lives like 30 minutes from where I live. I live in Franklin. He lives in Murphysboro. And yeah, so that's cool.
05:48
Then I met you, Tim. And we're family weekend in like, 2018 19. Right?
05:53
Yeah. Yeah. lcgs The Charlotte weekend?
05:56
I thought you guys much longer than that. Oh, really? Yeah.
06:01
And then I met you at Williamsburg, right? For the feast. And then we got to know each other. When I came through Tennessee, like the following year.
06:07
I think the first conversation we had, I think that's the first time we met in person, I feel like the first conversation we had is when I called you out of the blue and brought up my criticisms of CGM with you. Man, that was like a three hour conversation and you took it like a champ.
06:25
I mean, that's the whole I was gonna I was gonna build to that, like, I'm pretty sure our I think all of my closest friendships are at least like 75% Start with disagreement. Like if we have a really good disagreement right off the bat. And it's, it's cool, then, like, that's a way to get me hooked in a in a friendship. So I think,
06:42
why do you think that is? Why do you think that that's a
06:45
common denominator, because I'm a New York, Italian.
06:48
Remember, like, if you think about it. So I feel that I would agree that most of my good friends, and I've been blessed with a lot of good friends, often we don't see eye to eye on things. Obviously, not everything is a lot of stuff in common to be friends with people. But I like people that can disagree. And this is sort of, you know, I guess the the crux of our topic, but it's refreshing to have people that can, number one, be open enough to disagree with you in a respectful way, and try and get you to see things from a different perspective. And then number two, they can take criticism, or can take pushback on a point of view, or anything like that, and not be so offended the moment you disagree. I mean, like some of my some of my best friends we can unleash on each other. My wife could tell you about this back in the day, I've learned to be a lot more diplomatic, you know, but in the past, I would often be too overboard with really pushing my point to the point of like, debate and you just want to be like hammering things out wanting to be right. And I never meant it to be offensive. And it would often come across badly because of my presentation. But same struggle. Yeah. But I think that there's something to say about I kind of want people to be very open and forceful in what they believe I want you to backup and say, as emotionally as forcefully as you can, what you believe in why? And then we can talk about it, he doesn't need to, it doesn't ever have to be, you know, offensive, you know, right.
08:28
I think it's definitely a personality thing, because certain personalities tend to gravitate towards that. And they tend to crave that they experience connection by engaging in debate. And there's an element of honesty and vulnerability that occurs in those interactions beyond just you know, the normal pleasantries and in hiding who you are, what you think. I'm just certain personalities gravitate towards that more and are more comfortable to express it. Yeah, than others.
09:00
I think that's a key point to Tim that I was thinking about when Dan was talking to you mentioned is that it's a person demonstrates a personality type. That is, I don't want to say unpretentious. But like, they're very open. It's not like they're hiding who they are. I think for me, it's a comfort to be in a conversation with someone even if they're not necessarily overly emotional. But if I can tell, they're really open to critical feedback that I can say what is I need to say not worry about having to fine tune it to such a degree and worrying about being offensive. I think it's very disarming and it helps the conversation be a lot more genuine and free flowing. But also I wonder I mean, let me know if this is your experience, guys, but for me, I think it's possible to disagree with someone and actually feel like you think way more similarly than people who are on the same page with if that makes sense. Like when when Dan comes to me and mentioned stuff he disagrees with about CGI, like obviously we don't see eye to eye on the was topics. But the way he approaches it is something I really identify with, like his thought process around. It makes sense to me. It's familiar. It's a process I respect. So someone who might come to me and be gung ho positive about Cgn, but hasn't done the whatever the thinking that Dan has almost as means less to me like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get as much out of that conversation. Then with someone who cares about me enough, at least that's the way interpreted to tell me exactly how they think.
10:33
Yeah, I agree.
10:35
Yeah. And I think it's funny because I was telling Tim before that Sunday, actually, right before we talked, I, there's a group of friends I play board games with every other Sunday, and none of them are in the church. And besides not being in the church, which are pretty opposite, like, really, in any way to think we get along socially. Obviously, we're friends we play, we play these board games. But there's so far, a lot of them are almost atheists, radical liberals like way out there. And I actually find it helpful in a way to hear for a couple reasons to hear their perspective on things. And so this this last week, we have a mutual friend that he kind of introduced me to the group. And he's very, he's not in the church either. But he's very kind of a neutral person, easy to talk to back and forth. But this group, you know, the rest of them are very, very different. They don't think conservative all actually kind of hate conservative thinking. And when I was there Sunday, they were venting about how they hated these policies. They had this net, all the stuff that's going on in the world, from the Conservatives side. Now, I don't, obviously engaged in the politics of the world. But if you were to put me on a spectrum, I'd be more conservative leaning than I will be liberal leaning in in the world. Temperature, I guess today. Yeah. So my immediate kind of reactions, as they're venting and saying all this stuff is well, I should bring up this counterpoint. And I just decided to shut up and just let them talk. Like, let them vent. Try and see them. I think one of the biggest keys to getting along with anybody is if you pray to see them the way that God sees them. I mean, if you think about it, God sees you. We see us often as how we are right now, and how you're presenting yourself right now, especially with somebody new, but God doesn't see any of us the way we are right now. He sees what you can become. He looks at every one of us and says this person can become a God being like, I mean that great. Do we see other people like that? I mean, when we're when we're talking to somebody a disagreement that we say, yeah, they're all amped up right now. But I see them as a gardening potentially, no, we often just get emotionally involved and get offended. Yeah. So for me, I was trying to see it as this group of people, as people that are in the world that don't have knowledge of the truth, that have gone through, in some cases, really horrible stuff personally, and just let them vent and kind of try and learn where they're coming from, doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions or their ideology. But it really helps you to view them in a way as God views them, like their human being that has so much potential, the same potential as you and I in God's eyes. And I think that really is almost like the heart of the matter at ever having any conversation where you disagree is that look, the person might not see what you're talking about, or I might not see what they're talking about. But God knows that, okay, if I put them through X, Y, and Z, A, B, and C at they'll get there, they'll get there eventually. That makes sense.
13:49
Yeah. And I think there are there are two elements to that, too. I think the first thing is, at least for me, is that especially in the church, we should you mentioned, you know, radically liberal, we should probably be able to hear some of the things, some of the gripes they have against whatever it is Republicans or or mainstream religion and go, Yeah, you're right. You know what I mean? Like, there's probably quite a bit of stuff. I mean, we in the church should see quite a bit of hypocrisy in organized religion in or things that don't make sense. Heaven in hell, right? I was talking to someone recently, the idea that if someone is really twisted for 70 years of their life, would they burn in hell for all eternity? That feels like not an equivalent? Of course, of course, that would be a source of frustration, or it would be a disincentive to go that way if you're in the world. And to your point, who knows what these folks had been through. I mean, you add some significant trauma to the mix, and you don't even have the mental or emotional bandwidth to grapple with some of these issues is it's a struggle just to get through day to day. So the empathy thing I think, to your point is, is critical. But I'm wondering for both of you, maybe Tim first, what's Your experience with being exposed to people who who think and believe differently than you. And actually, those people either highlighting dissonance within your own viewpoints or maybe just points you hadn't considered and maybe things that had caused you to grow as a result of exposure to different viewpoints.
15:23
I mean, I think usually my initial reaction is the natural reaction is upset and anger. But, but then it's like, okay, that's like my animalistic lizard brain thinking. If I to borrow a term term from evolution, but whatever. But then, you know, you step back and think about like, well, let me step out of my myself and what I'm thinking whatever my my biases are, and just inhabit whatever mental model that they're working from, you know, and see if there's something there that I can learn, or that I haven't considered before. I think that's the ideal I strive for, right? Because ultimately, I can't, there's a tendency to assume that we have it all figured out, right? And I try not to think that way. I don't have it all figured out. And not everything that I've ever come across Dan. And then doesn't either for sure, pretty much anyone from New York doesn't know, either. Fair enough. So I guess my point is that you have to let go of the assumption that you know, everything and that you have the complete vision and picture of everything that's ever happened in existence, and be able to explore someone else's perspective and viewpoint as informed by their history and experience, and so on, so forth.
17:01
You know, it's a great, I forgot where I heard it. But someone mentioned a really good interview question. They ask candidates, especially if it's like executive level decision, like a manager level position. They they ask the question, or they say, Tell me about a time where you were completely wrong about something you are completely sure you are correct about. Like over the time, you changed your mind about something you thought for sure you were you were right on about it. And I think that's a that's a great question, because I feel like everyone should have something like that. And I think talking with people who disagree, even if they're not, at least in my experience, even if they're not correct, as well, I think sometimes getting pushed back on your view, makes you realize, oh, yeah, that is contradictory. Or, yeah, there's some holes in that. Let me go back to the drawing board. And take a look at it. Dan, what's your I mean, these for me, the the experience being in New York is, is inescapable because if you go to a public school, I went to, you know, college institutions, you're the minority viewpoint and everything, whether it's social, political, or religious. It's not a situation conducive to that way of thinking. So if you want to make friends in that environment, you can't you have to be able to disagree with folks positively. And you have to, you can't just only choose to associate with folks who agree the same way you do. But Tim, are you gonna say something that I think?
18:28
Well, I Well, I have two quick thoughts. Just while we're on this, to camp on a bit, I think. If you haven't changed your mind ever in your life, you haven't grown, you haven't learned. And then another thing too, even if you don't change your mind on a topic, by engaging in that you further inform your opinion, and it becomes more solid in your mind as well. And that comes through the sharpening process of engaging with the opposition to that as and so on either end, whatever the conclusion is, there's opportunity for for growth.
19:09
Yeah, yeah. Dan, you have a comment? Well,
19:11
I was just gonna say it's a weird, dynamic. And I know for me personally, others may find it coming more naturally, but it's taking a year because even when I was a little kid growing up, all the friends I had, we'd all hang out, we debate stuff, we talk a lot. It wasn't, you know, younger kids today tend to get more roped into video games and stuff. But when you're out socializing, talking all the time, you kind of get this constant conflict, potentially, you know, I guess you can have your video games too. But it's a weird, it's kind of a weird mentality to be focused on. Okay, because essentially, we're all looking for the truth. Even when you're debating a topic. You're debating the truth of that particular topic.
19:52
Ideally, yeah,
19:53
you know, true, ideally, I think but even the people that are maybe biased and deceived, self deceived or something are still thinking that that's the truth in their way of thinking possible.
20:03
I don't know that I agree. 100%. You don't agree? I don't agree with you, Dan. I think especially in today's age, there's less of a value on truth as an absolute. But I think amongst the three of us here, yeah. Okay, having a background in the church, there's an element of trust that I have, that all of us are ultimately interested in the truth, and that we value that. And, you know, we might come to different conclusions on a few topics here and there. But ultimately, it's from, from a place of good intentions, and a place where that is a high value.
20:49
Yeah. It's it's interesting, too. I remember a quote from Mr. Armstrong actually about the about why, or what the evidence was that the body of people in WCG was part of the the true church. And he said, it was that we were able to admit, when we're wrong about something. So like, the church is on record as stating that that is a key component to being converted. And the thing that's interesting is I think we've as a people moved a bit away from that not consciously, by think sort of accidentally, but what's what's inherent in that statement is, the only way you can change your mind about something is to have exposure to new information, so that you can get yourself through study, if you're studying and you're close to God's word, and you're praying and fasting and all those things. That's one way to get new information. But another way is from other people, and especially other converted people. And just very briefly, I think I told Dan, this, I'm almost positive. I've told him the story before, because I say this all the time. One of my favorite bits that Thomas Sowell writes about in some of his work on the development of cultures is that the most advanced cultures develop along trade routes, because those are the places that are exposed to the most new information, new goods and technology, you're getting new people from different parts of the world coming through. And the places in the world that are not along trade routes are even worse, if they're broken up or isolated because of geography, like if they're closed in by a mountain range, then they might not see innovation, a lot of things for a long time. And much of the world will pass them by until they get exposure to a new aesthetic cultures and beliefs and innovations. And I think that principle holds true in the Church of God. And I think we're at a point now maybe it's a good transition to the next part of the topic where the Church of God over the last 30 plus years has become so siloed in different organizations, because we as a people, I think have continually self selected into groups of people who think more and more like us, over time, that I think exposure to different viewpoints is not as common. And I think Dan and I were talking about this recently, that I think it's actually feared.
23:11
Yeah, well, I think there's, there's, and you know, we've talked about this, I think there's good reason to fear in one sense, because of the way the church broke up. And a lot of people, especially younger people might not understand how, when to catch took over, you know, when he was appointed and took over, the way that they deconstructed, the truth was deceptive. Like, they just lied, they lied all the time, about what they were going to teach about what they were teaching, how they taught it, like it was nonstop deception. So when you have a group, it's different if you were to like if you know, let's say, Joe to cash to go over, and was like, You know what, we're gonna go keep Christmas and be out in the world. We decided that, you know, Mr. Armstrong was wrong. And we're just breaking off and doing this, but they didn't do that. They live for like, Oh, what, like 10, 5, 7, 8 years, 10 years. However you want to catalog the deception. I mean, they went on a crusade of deception. And when you have people that are mired in a previously trustworthy environment, you know, they're in a cocoon of safety. They're in the true church, they have a leader who's on track, there's fruit being produced, which we often don't talk about that because there's none frankly, in almost any group out there. There's some here and there, but there's really not a lot out there.
24:40
To what, uh, compared to that and worldwide. Yeah, and that's a lot of the reason why you have the infighting and the bickering. Number one, it's from the way things broke apart. So because it broke apart in such a deceptive environment, people get confused, and they don't trust people that are in charge. And so you have these silos that develop where people are afraid kind of to reach out because of the amount of wolves that are out there. And
25:08
it's very legitimate. I mean, I think it's important for you to acknowledge is legitimate because I think there are a lot of folks who do want more cross group fellowship and community and unity, who I think might not give that issue, the important place it deserves in the conversation, because I think that's important. I think it's also important to recognize the the trauma, that that breakup, presented to people and put people through not only the membership with the leadership as well, what I've sensed, or last couple of years, is that the leadership is so traumatized by it, like, there's just so much, man, we just got to make sure we don't have another split. Because it was it's such an impactful thing in people's lives. I mean, it's not just like a company dissolving. It's like people's, the core of their being in the, in the their entirety of their familial and social environment, plus their core beliefs. Like, there are a lot of things disentangled in that.
26:05
Yeah, well, is that it's very much like a divorce. Yeah, yeah, it's a divorce.
26:11
And it makes sense, why why groups, you end up having these justifications for their existence, like, like groups trying to justify their authority, trying to justify that the true church is in one organ, you know, I used to believe that you trypsin while your organization, it's one of the reasons I went to restored and and I felt like that was the place to be right. And even before then I thought that living was it. And I thought that you should, you should, if people just put all their eggs in one basket and back one thing, not really understanding the whole the dynamics of why there's separation, you know, and what, it's really stems from the way it broke up. It's the deceptive element of it that blossomed into all the confusion that we have today. And then like, to your point, you know, that families broke, I know, for when I was a kid, I know, families broke up and divorces happen because of that. And that reverberates, you know, generationally, and, and how do you how do you then start to get? Now you have these groups that are afraid of that, I say, these groups don't need to be, you know, pointing fingers, but you have you have groups that feel okay, we need to take a stand and establish our authority to the people, so they know they have a place to go. And then there's any number of shades of grey, so to speak that that do that. And they have their own reason for doing that. But I think the the point we miss a lot, which we're in the latest thing ever, like where the Laodicean church, I'm so sick of hearing groups, and people say, and not everyone does. And not all groups do it, obviously. But they say well, where the Philadelphia and you know, group in the latest thing, they're like, Nah, you, you can hope we can all hope. And aim for obviously, that we are Philadelphia, that's what we're going to be in this kind of church age, if we're looking at it like that. We are the Laodicean church. I mean, we 100% Or I would say personally, in my bet on my best days, I'm probably at best Laodicean.
28:13
And not to go down the whole church eras, rabbit hole. But, you know, the counter argument just to play devil's advocate is that well, in worldwide this day, if that's ostensibly the Philadelphia and era, there is also coexisting with the service area and blah, blah. So there's the possibility of a Philadelphia and remnant living amongst again, I don't know that it's here, nor there, but either way. Go ahead, Dan. Sorry.
28:41
No, I was just gonna say like, I think it's just indicative of, of the fact that whether it's the trauma imposed it presented to leaders and they still hold membership, whether it's the the psychological trauma going through it, if it's an actual divorce that came from the church splits, or its people who want to elevate themselves as better than other folks in the Church of God community. I think those things present the, the, like, the human element of this the things that affect the emotions, and and incentivize certain ways of thinking that might be more rooted in emotion and fear as opposed to to logic. But if we're gonna, for the sake of conversation, try to say, Well, what mood trying to talk about the Church of God moving from wanting to be more homogeneous and in their silos to being more open to other viewpoints and groups and as a result risk because that's what we really are asking is that people open themselves up to a degree of, yeah, it's not going to be comfortable disagreeing, especially if you're not born and raised in that environment where that's okay. But then I think it comes to a second point, which we've talked about before, which is, there's a what I've realized says there's a fear among leadership, about the ability of members to let's say, there are a lot of leaders who want cross group fellowship and more of it. But they're concerned that perhaps members won't be able to navigate the different the differences in doctrine, not even, even if they're not that fundamental, that there are so many, as Dan said, either wolves or just so many land mines have doctrinal issues to disagree over that, are you bringing about a situation where there's gonna become more conflict, and it's gonna become worse rather than better? And that's a legitimate, that's a legitimate thing. And Dan and I were talking about that. I know, Tim, you and I've talked about it, I'm assuming you and Dan have talked about it. But I, I think that's, I think that's a good place to park ourselves for a bit. And that is, if we do have a membership that isn't able, in mass to navigate these different not only opinions, but frankly, cultures, the cultures and the different Church of God organizations are very different right now. Then why is that the case? And what do you do to help rectify that or start to move the needle on
31:11
it? I mean, you know, what, I think what your question speaks to, more fundamentally, is just asking yourself, Is there value to even attempting that, right? Like is, is there value to maintaining any relationship there, across the Church of God? And when I say Church of God, I mean, the greater sense of it the spiritual organism, right. And, of course, I mean, I believe there is value, right? Do a lot in part two, my background and how that has shaped my perspective. And so the way that you navigate it, is the same way you would navigate a disagreement with a family member, you know, you're still family. And I think also recognizing the fact that the commonalities shared are so far greater than the differences that occur. That that is the point to start from. Right. Rather than solely being worried about about the differences, not to belittle the differences, I think the differences are important, you know, and that's one thing we've talked about, like, I'm not at this stage of the game, I'm not pro corporate organizational unity across the board. But at least, there should be some semblance of recognition that we're spiritual cousins, or brothers and sisters, in some sense. And with that as a basis, then then comes just the skill of being able to have a civil discussion, and be able to talk about topics that you disagree about without making it this emotionally charged. situation or try to force your will and opinion on other person, you know, let them have theirs discuss it. And who knows, maybe you'll persuade them, maybe you'll learn some new information to your point.
33:30
Yeah. And that was in that sort of speaks to the the first podcast episode that you and I did about how to disagree in love and the importance of that. Dan, maybe you can speak to because you and I talked about this recently, the the fact that, you know, not only do I think we should be able to get into circumstances where, hey, let's focus on the commonality first. But at some point, you do need to either address or you just know, inherently, the disagreements are going to come up like it's unavoidable, and you can't pretend that it's not going to be the case. So the I think one of the fears and it's legitimate, I think it's a reality is that when, when certain groups of people get exposed to different views, there's a fear of deception, not only amongst the ministry, but amongst the individual. I know a lot of individual like members who fear exposure to different viewpoints, because they feel like they're going to be deceived. And I think that prevents engaging in disagreement that could help both parties learn. And as you and I've talked about, I think it stems from the individual not being sufficiently grounded in their own beliefs. You want to speak to that for a bit.
34:39
Yeah, well, that I mean, that's, that's the key of your of our call. I mean, essentially, is that it's your relationship with God. No organization, family members, spouse friend is going to save you. We have if we don't have a relationship with God What we're going to be constantly in a state of uncertainty. So one of the reasons I said before that I would make the decision to go to restore it again, was because when I made this what I was attending living at the time, and there were reasons I want you to know this stuff, like, there were reasons why I was like, Well, I feel like, you know, maybe I should go to restored, I feel like that was the place that that God wanted me to go that at the time, I felt that the church was in one organization, and I was kind of looking for that organization. And a lot of what I went through at that time with friends that I would talk to, was a lot of rejection and pushback. And I would often say, I would try and say like, look, I'm, here's what I think I think this is the right thing to do. And I would just get yelled at him for thinking about it, not yelled at, but I would get, I would get dismissed for even considering
35:56
rather than having a discussion, right. It's just, Dan's crazy, or it's dismissive of your concerns.
36:03
Exactly. There's what my minister said to me, at the time, was, well, there's no point in even talking to you, you've already made up your mind. And I hadn't made up my mind. I was literally having questions, wanting to talk about it. But that's how he responded, I mean, so but whatever. So it got to the point where I said, Look, I prayed people always, I always find that people always say this to, everyone's like, well, I prayed and fasted, and that's
36:30
okay. And I feel still felt the same way. But here's the thing.
36:33
I believe, I think you guys need to do that God, there are spirit begotten brethren in different organizations. Well, if all of them are praying and fasting to be in the same place, why are they all different places? So a lot of times when I would say that, people would dismiss it, because it's like, well, I prayed and fasted, and God's told me to stay here. So it would almost be kind of dismissed that I even did it legitimately, what did you even really pray, you're just following your emotion to an organization, that that's kind of the feedback that I got. But I knew internally that I wasn't. And I'll throw my wife in there to both of us when we're not doing it. So anyway, we made the decision finally, to go and stay there for a couple of years, we had a great time for a couple of years. And as you said, you know, I was the Minister for about a little bit over a year. And it started to fall apart doctrinally. I won't get into all of it. But there were some really big red flags that came up. But what's interesting is that I stayed in touch with some friends. And people that I knew from living in other groups, even though restored was actually telling people not to talk to anyone. I was like, Nah, I'm probably just,
37:51
by the way, that still happens. I know of a bunch of people are still keeping in contact. And that's the other thing that I don't know if it's an elephant in the room, but it's something that is happening, and people just aren't acknowledging it. Like even in those groups, a lot of folks are gone now. Okay, whatever, like, I'm still going to talk to my family, you can say I can't talk to my family, or another group, but I'm going to do it anyway. So,
38:12
which is funny, because if you think about a leader that tells you to do that, it's not that they're warning you, Hey, be careful. You know, if these people because if you think about, like the scriptural warning, is like, beware of people that are like trying to pull you out, and you will know that people are trying to pull you out, because they're trying to pull you out there. They're like, they're bashing you. They're hammering you on doctrine on this on that, if they're in the world, like, oh, you should get Christmas, you're a heathen. Like, look, we don't need to talk anymore, if this is how you're gonna engage me. But not to go to off the demon with this. But basically,
38:46
well, I think what you're saying is if and correct me if I'm wrong, if it's civil, and you're like, hey, this is my opinion, this is your opinion. Let's live with that. That's one thing. But if it's another thing where they're actively trying to, I suppose recruit you, you know, that's another level, that
39:06
well, that's the level you should be worried about. Exact. That's what that's what you're wondering. Yeah. And often we think that it's just and leaders have, and, you know, to, like the pack would have this element of it. I mean, they would tell you, you shouldn't talk to them, even like married couples. I mean, they got to the point where they were just and they still are incredibly divisive in that way. They're actively now sowing division, because you don't even know if the person isn't even doing anything wrong. So
39:35
I think there's, I think there's an interesting point baked into this though, too, which is, you talk about the way we often treat each other when someone makes a decision that we don't agree with. Something that was impactful to me that I hadn't heard in a sermon a couple of years ago was part of not only dealing with people but having faith is having faith in God's spirit in the other person. That when you If I think Dan Quimby or Tim Reynolds has got spirit and they do something I disagree with, even if I think I'm right, I should have faith that God is working with you. And eventually, even if you are doing something out of emotion, or even if you are misguided at the point that you will get to where God needs you to be the same way, if I'm wrong, God will get me to where I need to be. So by not doing that, by not trusting the person or not giving the person the latitude to make their own decision, which is something God allows us to do. That we're not having faith in God's Holy Spirit working in that person, doesn't mean we have to agree with everything, but we have to give people the space to exercise the Free Will the same way God does.
40:39
Yeah. And to kind of just tie it up with what I was saying before with restored like that goes right with your point is that that the whole time I was making those transitions, I you know, I'm praying and studying about it. And I'm okay God, is this what what do you think about, you know, when Dave Pack started to really go off track, I say, I'm saying taking titles and stuff like that, claiming to be a prophet all this crazy stuff. Like, in the in the beginning of it. I didn't jump ship right away. And some people were like, you know, what's wrong with you? Like, why would you stay there? It's like, well, I prayed and fasted for a long time, and went through a bunch of experiences that God took me through that made me believe it was the right decision to stay here. And I would always kind of go over in my head. Often, you know, I mean, frankly, every pastor, we should do this kind of stuff. I go, why am I doing this? Why am I making the decisions I'm making? Why do I tend where I tend? Why do I believe what I believe, over and over and over again. And I felt like there is some wisdom in giving time for God to correct something. So in the church environment, right now, sometimes things go, a decisions made or something goes off track, and people immediately will jump ship, and maybe they have reasons for doing. You know, I've certainly done that before. I've done that recently. But I would say that, if you ask me all about am I in a 100%? Right, like organization. But I don't know, I can tell you exactly why I've made the decision. And I could tell God the same exact thing, because that's what I've discussed with him already. And that's why but I don't for one second think that, oh, this is the end all be all. For me. It's just the journey going back to God soon as you as what you can become, he's kind of taking you through experiences you have to we all have to learn to trust him in the decisions we make. And we can't be afraid to make a decision. If we feel like we're being pulled in a direction. And we're and we're consciously prayerfully making a decision, then just make the decision. Have faith in God, look, he can bring you back. He's done it to me before he can bring you back if you're wrong.
42:48
That's the key point here. So I think what we're talking about throughout this whole conversation is the importance of the pursuit of truth. And in pursuit of truth. exposing yourself to people of opposing opinions is very valuable. Oftentimes people conflate so you pray and fast, you think about indecision a lot, and then you make it and people think having faith and being immovable that that was the right decision is having faith in God. When that is not having faith in God that's having that's having an overconfidence in your own ability to make a decision. Being being okay with being with making a decision, like you said, and then God showing you after a period of time, hey, look, you were wrong there. You did make that based on emotion is part of the pursuit of truth. All during the cheers here.
43:38
Oh, you're Yeah, you're right. I mean, that's the journey of Yeah. And frankly, it's inseparable from action. And, you know, again, like, just stop me from talking too much about my own experience, because I don't mean to realize it, but like, I really feel powerfully about how God wrote I thank him all the time about how he brought me through there. I remember praying when I was in RCG, that we had a great time. Like, honestly, I love the people. There's people that still attend there that I love. They've cut me off. Which sucks because I would never talk doctrine, like, Look, if you don't want discuss it. Why can't we still be friends? I mean, you know, I missed them. And I would if they were to were to come out, at any point, I would welcome them with honors. The first thing I wouldn't say to them was I told you, so I'll tell you that much. And that's like,
44:33
that's the thing to keep in mind, though, for everyone listening is that, you know, people will will put restored and Philadelphia in the extreme category, which is legitimate they are but everyone I've met who has come out of those organizations has the same feeling towards the brethren there that that you do that they lamented that they there was value in their experience there. They missed those folks. There are God's people there. So I think it's important for us to keep that in mind. But go ahead
45:00
Yeah, no, I mean, so when God took me through that whole experience, I tend to be, as you guys probably know, I tend to be extreme, right? I'm like, I'm never in the middle regardless. I'm either to the left or to the right. And then when I realize when I'm on the left, and I realize I'm wrong, am I okay? And then I go. Correct. And what results
45:22
were intense people
45:24
were intense, right. So I think that I thank God all the time for that experience, because it helped me to really understand. It showed the fact it increased my faith, so much, a lot of people that get roped into groups, whenever they are even in the world, by culture, stuff like that. And they start. And here's kind of the danger of some of the more extreme cog groups, too, is that when a man places himself in the place of God, whether it's by title, or by any number of things that he could do that I'm not and we accept that whoever it is that's attending there accepts that for a period of time, you're now you're now in danger of following an idol. And I'm not saying you're worshiping it, but over time, that's exactly what it ends up becoming. And it's in place of God to kind of cut you off from that. But if you if you always keep your your relationship with God, through the whole experience of what you're doing, he's never going to put you in a position where you won't notice that and then give you a way of I mean, it's scriptural, you have a way of escape to get out.
46:31
And I think a central point in that, though, is, if the desire in the effort is in the pursuit of truth, there's a there's a great phrase that that my dad has, which is what truth Are you afraid of? Like, hypothetically, if we were supposed to keep Christmas? What's the downside of realizing that's true? Like, obviously, it's not none of us believe it. But that's an extreme case. If it's true, if you discover something is true, why would you be afraid to pursue that? And I think the, it's sort of a bit rhetorical, because I think we know that for most folks, it's in for for all of us, for the three of us here for everyone. It's not as simple as just making an objective decision. There's all kinds of biases, there's emotion that does come into play, there's personal experience. So all our decisions are not pure, they're clouded with with a whole lot. But if we're striving to take that out of the equation, and pursue truth, regardless of if it makes us uncomfortable, I think that's how you get to be a place when you're okay, where you don't feel like, Hey, I can't even expose myself to something else. Because I'm going to be drawn off track, I'm gonna be deceived. It results in like an extreme lack of confidence, not only in yourself, but in God's Spirit within you.
47:49
Yeah, definitely. And I think that as you're exposed to different points of view, sort of an ancillary, but wonderful benefit, is you learn to understand why people think the way they do. It's a lot of legitimate reasons why people can come to believe things that you might think are crazy.
48:11
And they might, they might be crazy, but it's still the way they got there was sort of understandable.
48:16
Right, and like, it could be background, it could be environment, it could be any number of, of factors that get into that. But I just think that part of the thing a light to people is, well, I mean, the essence, I guess, of being a light to people is that if you're not close to God, you're not going to be a light, because God doesn't shine through you.
48:38
The light is not us, the light is God.
48:41
And the light wouldn't be on if you weren't. So, you know, I just think that there are a lot of times with this way, friends and family that we all know will make bad decisions. They'll do stuff that we're like, that's a terrible decision. I don't agree with you. The worst thing you could do is cut them off. The only biblical reason for cutting people off is like we discussed if they're actively trying to get you to go against your faith in God and your belief in the scriptures. Like if they're actively pushing and even after you've said, hey, look, I don't want to talk about it anymore. We could talk about basketball, sports, whatever you want to talk about we can socialize but this is you know, I'm this is where I stand, please don't bring it up. If they just keep hammering you, well, then you just start talking to them. Yeah, that's what
49:29
you know. And the key thing there too, is if you if you cut someone off because they disagree in their in the church, right? It doesn't fall into the category you just said, when you cut someone off, you're eliminating the source of God, in this hypothetical potential godly information. If you're, if you're being that light, if you're correcting this, the only way to ensure that that person stays off track is to cut off contact with them. So in the Church of God if one group believes another group is off track, let's say hypothetically the right, you know, a great way to guarantee that that group stays off track, never interacting with them. Because that group now never hears any of the arguments or the reasons for the viewpoint of the group that believes that you're just staying in your silos and people are repeating the same mistakes ad nauseam over the course of decades. Sometimes we either overblow what the differences are, or we overblow the extent to which we're gonna be led off track by like, simplistic reasoning or something.
50:30
I don't know if I think that and I don't, I don't disagree with you that it's good to expose yourself and think critically. But the problem is that, as we said, people don't have a strong relationship with God, you probably shouldn't explore yourself, if you don't have a strong listener of God, that's what you should do, like, get yourself right with God. And
50:49
you know, well, to that point in a, Tim, because I know you want to say something on that. But maybe that's a good way to end it is, if that's the reality is that we have a problem with being whatever intellectually or as, as grounded in our beliefs as we should before God. What's the path forward to that? Tim? I don't know if that was what you were going to talk about, you could make whatever statement and then address it. But wasn't
51:12
that I will go back to that to say that ultimately, regardless of any of this, like the foundation is having a firm foundation in relationship with God and a firm foundation and the fundamentals of our faith. Right. And another example, in line with one you brought up is like, there's some of these websites like banned by HWA right, perfect example, never recommend that anybody make a steady diet of checking out the latest posts on
51:46
the waste of time? Yeah, right.
51:50
You know, maybe once in a while, like you go, just add curiosity, I don't recommend that for your own mental health, that the same time to be completely uncomfortable with people have that mindset or be uncomfortable with the conflict that comes from a conversation around that is also not healthy, too, because you gotta be able to combat that. Right.
52:13
And there are people who still in the Church of God who believe some of that,
52:17
yeah, and if you if you cannot, if you cannot argue some of those points, right, explain why you believe what you believe or you're doing, you're doing the point. That is you're on Rocky footing. Yeah, that's a great point. You know, again, not to say there's a balance like you, I would not recommend that you spend a lot of your free time in negativity. But you need to be able to be solid, with where you are at with God, and the decisions you've made and be able to articulate them. And if you can't, you got a lot of homework to do. Yeah,
53:03
just to re emphasize, too. Don't be afraid to make a decision. Like do it. Do it. prayerfully do it with knowledge. But don't fear it. Because God's word action. Yeah, cuz God can bring God can restore if you make a bad decision. Yeah, you know, then God can maybe there's a reason why God is allowing you to go ahead with that decision. And he can bring you through the lessons learned of that, and you're going to come out even better and more knowledgeable. And then, like, you know, it's only going to increase your faith. If you think it's going to destroy your faith. No, it only increases your
53:43
risk. And all of this, like I it might be not an exact application, but I just thought of the parable of the talents. Like if you're just gonna sit on it, yeah. And you're not going to do something with the gifts that you have. That's just as condensable as you know, going down the wrong path, making the wrong decision. But ultimately, there's redemption, there's the ability to come back from
54:06
that's, that's the key. And all this too, is that there's a difference between faith in yourself and faith in God. And oftentimes, we conflate the two, we make a decision and we're so fearful about needing to admit, at some point, it's wrong. All we're demonstrating is that, like, we haven't put complete trust and complete trust and faith in God is, this is the best of my knowledge right now. I know I don't know everything. If God shows me this is wrong, I have no problem changing it. Because he knows that I don't like going into this decision knowing I don't have perfect information. And if you go in thinking, I have all the information I could possibly need. Whatever I decide is going to be correct. You just start having faith in God. People often think that is but it's just having faith in yourself. It's self aggrandizement. It's not faith in God, but then you are
54:54
or there's the element of checking your brain in and letting somebody else Oh yeah, do your spiritual life which is easy to do. That should be a complete other
55:04
topics. Well, I was gonna say is that our next podcast if we do another one? Yeah, we got it, which I'm loving the very thought but we should do a podcast on how to bear fruit. How do church members bear fruit? What are ways practical ways? Enter organizationally, you're doing some of that already with some of the stuff you know CGM promotes. But anyway, it could just be something because that's just a thought.
55:35
I thought. That's number one. That's great. Number two, one of the big things that was interesting to hear in a recent survey or like maybe a year or two in a sermon was that the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians are a command. Mm hmm. Which is an interesting way to frame that right.
55:53
You could start the podcast off with that.
55:55
Right? Maybe you could be one of our producers will bring Dan Quimby on his CGN Podcast Producer. You'd be in charge of content and topics. Content. Send me an email. Yeah, okay. Cool. Well, I think we'll call it there guys. Thanks again for joining us everyone watching and listening. Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Tim, for coming on. It was a pleasure. Hey, thank you.